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Five Hard Truths About the MBA

Tags: MBA, Student, Jeffrey Pfeffer, Geoffrey James, Management, Business School, Education, BNET Feature

For years, an MBA degree has been seen as a first-class ticket to the management fast track. Some spend $100,000 or more to earn the degree, confident that it will propel their career into overdrive — and often that’s not an unreasonable expectation. To many hiring managers, an MBA on the resume is a sure sign that the candidate has long-term, corner-office potential.

To a growing number of critics, though, the once-golden MBA is quickly losing its luster. There’s a quiet revolt brewing against MBA programs, and the barbarians at the gate aren’t outsiders but rather the B-school academic elite.

When it comes to the practical value of the degree, the once-lonely voices of dissent have, in recent years, grown into a chorus of criticism. Among their accusations: The degree is over-hyped, MBA curricula are out of touch with real-world demands, and many programs have a culture that turns a blind eye to cheating. If the business world starts paying attention to these naysayers, that $100,000 tuition or the decision to pay big bucks to hire an MBA may start looking like less of a sound investment. Here’s the latest critical thinking about the MBA and implications for managers and companies that depend on them most.

Hard Truth No. 1: The ROI isn’t what it used to be.

Writing in a research piece for “The Academy of Management Learning and Education” several years ago, two business school professors, Jeffrey Pfeffer of Stanford and Christina Fong of the University of Washington, dropped this bomb on academia: “What data there are suggest that business schools are not very effective. Neither possessing an MBA degree nor grades earned in courses correlate with career success.”

The report debunked many of the traditional claims of B-school recruiters. Pfeffer and Fong cited multiple studies that, for instance, compared the salaries earned by MBAs with their nondegreed peers. All research concluded that although MBA grads earned higher starting salaries than college grads, midcareer MBAs saw no salary boost after earning the degree. Some studies even found that those who pursued an MBA full time suffered from the disruption in their employment.

The 2002 paper kicked up a storm of protest that hasn’t let up. Many in the business education community have cited other studies suggesting that an MBA is still a good investment. Salaries for MBA grads began to rebound in 2005, perhaps indicating the downturn had more to do with the economy than the value of the degree.

Pfeffer and Fong, however, remain unconvinced, in part because of skyrocketing costs. As Pfeffer explained to BNET, “The overall cost of education has risen so much over the past 15 years that it’s become unclear whether it makes sense to overburden yourself with expenses and loans in order to secure the possibility of a greater salary in the future.”

Indeed, many students enter into an MBA program without any idea whether it will be a decent investment, according to Anna Ivey, a former dean of admissions at the University of Chicago Law School who now counsels graduate students on career choices.

“Undergraduates in various fields frequently ask me if earning an MBA will make them more hirable or land them a bigger salary when they get their first job,” she said. “But based upon what I’ve seen, if [an MBA] is something that you’re doing because you want to make more money, rather than because you’re really interested in how businesses function, you’ll probably be disappointed.”

Hard Truth No. 2: The training has become too theoretical.

It’s not just basic cost-benefit analysis that’s bringing the MBA under greater scrutiny. Some critics argue that even top business schools aren’t adequately preparing students to be effective managers.

In his 2004 book “Managers Not MBAs: A hard look at the soft practice of managing and management development,” Henry Mintzberg dropped another bomb: “The MBA trains the wrong people in the wrong ways with the wrong consequences,” the professor of management studies at McGill University writes, echoing concerns about the impracticality of MBA training that had been bouncing around corporate America for years.

Since then, other critics have weighed in, arguing that there’s too much emphasis on management theory and too little on developing practical skills. For instance, Howard Stevens, CEO of the HR Chally Group consulting firm, explains that “only a handful of academic institutions — around 45 out of more than 700 — offer significant training in sales, even though success in sales is the most important determinant of a firm’s ultimate success.”

Others, too, suggest that when it comes to practical versus theoretical curricula, supply and demand is out of whack: Linda Richardson, the founder of Philadelphia-based Richardson, one of the largest sales training firms in the United States, also teaches how-to sales courses at the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania. She says MBA students are hungry for more training.

“We limit our program to 15 students,” Richardson says, “and every quarter I get dozens of emails pleading to get in and students waiting at the door to see if anybody drops out. The reluctance among some business schools to address real-world business needs is really doing a disservice to their student body.”

Business schools are beginning to respond to these concerns. In the past two years, Yale and Stanford implemented sweeping changes to their MBA curricula, allowing students to tailor their coursework based on previous work experience and career goals.

Hard Truth No. 3: Some of the people skills needed to be a manager today can’t be taught in the business school environment.

Both the Pfeffer/Fong paper and Mintzberg’s book were highly critical of how universities had, over the past two decades, repositioned the MBA concept. Originally designed to teach corporate finance and the mechanics of manufacturing and supply chains, MBA programs now promise to teach students to be competent managers.

The premise is slightly ridiculous, says Pfeffer. “If you go into law or medicine or architecture, you’re expected to go into a residency or apprenticeship before you’re allowed to practice on your own,” he explains, “Unfortunately, business schools pretend that any student with an MBA should be a great manager right out the gate, regardless of real-world experience.” He notes that while many MBA students have worked in business, many of them have never managed people and thus lack the perspective to apply the management theory that they learn.

Management is just too complex a human behavior to be effectively taught in a classroom environment, according to Ray Tsai, M.D., an MBA candidate at the Wharton School. “You could take a class titled Managing People at Work, where you discuss different theories on behavior, motivation, etc., and do reasonably well academically. But if you don’t have some significant experience working with, above, or below other people, you will not really appreciate the full extent of the material.”

In the worst cases, the notion that MBAs automatically make great managers can convince people who don’t have management potential that they have the ability when their talents would be better utilized elsewhere.

“What’s really missing in MBA programs is a sense of purpose,” says Pfeffer, citing the reasons people seek advanced degrees in law, medicine, or engineering. “With an MBA, it seems that the main motivation is the ability to max out your 401(k) contribution, and that’s just not good enough to make you a good manager.”

Hard Truth No. 4: MBA programs propagate management fads.

In 2006, an “Atlantic Monthly” article lambasted management theory, the very heart of the MBA curriculum. Authored by Matthew Stewart, the former founder of a management consulting group, “The Management Myth” poked holes in the history of management studies and made a compelling case that the attempt to turn management into a science had generated little more than a series of self-contradictory opinions. For example, he notes that all management theory tends to fall into one of two categories: rationalist (manage by the numbers) and humanist (inspire and empower), even though the two approaches result in diametrically different management behaviors.

Stewart also took MBA programs to task for promulgating what he called “such gems of vacuity as: ‘[business process reengineering] is taking a blank sheet of paper to your business!’ and ‘BPR means rethinking everything, everything!”

Academics countered with accusations that Stewart was conflating MBA training with management fads. However, the curriculum posted on the Harvard Business School website immediately reveals a wealth of Dilbertesque biz-blab. For example, one course promises to teach students how to address “cannibalization, network externalities, and globalization” and “generate superior value for customers by designing the optimum configuration of the product mix and functional activities.” Say what?

The incorporation of management fads into the MBA curriculum lessens the usefulness of the degree because, in practice, these pop theories often are more disruptive than helpful. “You know how it goes, the same company that did quality circles is now doing re-engineering,” complains Frank Ingari, chairman of Purkinje, a provider of practice management services to physicians. “Did they ever connect those two concepts?”

Hard Truth No. 5: The pressure to succeed inside MBA programs has weakened safeguards against cheating.

The year 2006 also saw publication of a landmark study, funded by the Academy of Management Learning and Education, revealing that 56 percent of MBA candidates admitted to cheating. It turns out that MBA candidates are plagiarizing, copying from other students, and bringing prohibited materials to exams in much higher numbers than nonbusiness graduate students. The implication was clear: MBA programs were unwittingly encouraging, or at least tolerating, the kind of behavior that ultimately results in Enron or WorldCom-type scandals.

The real problem may lie in the mindset that accompanies the MBA experience, according to Linda Klebe Trevino, a professor of management and organization at the Penn State Smeal College of Business and a co-author of the report on cheating. “An MBA is often seen as a ticket to more lucrative employment, so perhaps getting the degree is more important to them than the knowledge gained along the way,” she explains. “Along the same lines, it may be a ‘bottom-line’ mentality — that performance is what matters, not how you get there.”

That’s a dangerous perspective that’s made worse by the general failure of business schools to do much to catch and punish cheaters, according to Pfeffer. “If a student is caught cheating, the professor risks being accused of persecuting the student,” he explains. “The accusation is then passed through a review board consisting mostly of students. And in the unlikely event that the student is found guilty, [he or she] is simply given a slap on the wrist — like a one-quarter suspension, rather than expulsion.”

The risk to the professor’s career often is not worth the effort. Pfeffer adds, “What’s resulted is a tolerance of behaviors that, in their larger manifestations, are poisoning the American corporation.”

 
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  •  
    1

    tbrdpritts

    10/19/07 | Report as spam

    MBA poetry

    MBAs give what one puts into them while earning them and braving the attempt to implement theory. But clearly they do not teach enough real-world. This can only happen by introducing chaos and power vacuums into the curriculum.

  •  
    2

    Pete Malpass

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    Some programs are very applied

    I agree but would suggest that team exercises work very well. University of Tennessee's Just-in-Time curriculum from mid-1990s used teams of students acting on corporate situations with elements from appropriate disciplines "just-in-time" to learn first semester: "You're Daddy just Died (and left you the business)" - how to hold a gong concern together, second semester: "So you wanna be an entrepreneur" and last two semesters: "Getting ahead in corporate America and World." I made my students in Statistics form companies and 3-5 of them as officers use TQM techniques to do all the planning and track their own results. Much superior learning to "talking heads" but I couldn't find a text book and had to provide materials from 30 years in business. If anyone wnats them I'll pass along

  •  
    3

    kfrey001

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    Response to additional materials

    Hello Pete,

    You have offered to send materials along. As I just posted, I am in an MBA program and also own my own business. I would greatly enjoy any additional information you could pass along. I am on the student board of advisors for an Entrepreneur Roundtable at my school, and we are catching the ear of the administrators, who are asking us for suggestions on what classes we'd like to have. If you are willing, you can send the info. to my business email: kate@cmackphoto.com.
    Thanks!

  •  
    4

    rhenozo.barte@...

    10/25/07 | Report as spam

    request for materials

    Thanks for your honest comment.

    I teach in a small college. Can I have your materials?Please email to me at rhenozo.barte@up.edu.ph

    Thanks

  •  
    5

    aaronsmith3

    01/02/08 | Report as spam

    JIT learning

    I like your method and ideas of using practical and actual examples to teach methods used in modern business today. I am currently enrolled (and blessfully almost done) with my MBA. I love the material and the course, but it's too hard to learn what is actually going on. I had toyed with the idea of presenting my alma mater with the notion of creating a fictional company and business students would start at the bottom in the business curriculum (Business 101) and culminating in the capstone course. Students would take the company from the beginning business plan presentation and take it all the way through, all the while using current business trends and theories that are in use today. The same could be and should be readily applied to all MBA courses, making them more relevant to businesses today.

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    6

    justmyviews

    10/19/07 | Report as spam

    Really?

    These articles always infuriate me. They are as useful as the garbage I can't recycle. Its very easy to get on the bandwagon of 'lets hit out at the MBA schools and students'. The ones who do it are hypocrites of the highest order. These articles always make it sound as if the problem is a recent creation, "Oh it wasn't like that in our days. What a travesty!'.

    Let?s take these points one at a time.

    1. The ROI isn't what it used to be.
    This is most probably true. My question here is, So what? Why repeat something that is true and most people know it. I don't think anyone goes into a MBA these days thinking they would have the same ROI people had 10-20 years ago. And how can you expect the ROI to be the same in a fast moving, turbulent world where everything is changing anyways? Its a useless argument to bring to the table.

    2. The training has become too theoretical.
    Again, this is a reflection of what is happening all around. The very academics, experts and management consultants giving their views in this article have written books and published hundreds of papers that give credence to analytical thinking, strategic decision making, two dimensional matrices, neatly tabulated and categorised reasons and answers. And then they blame the schools for not teaching the basic 'how to do it' rules? If management is something that needs working with your hands, getting to do dirty work, then please stop writing about it as if execution doesn't matter and what happens on the drawing board is all that is truly important. The blame lies with these so called experts.

    3. Some of the people skills needed today can't be taught in the business school
    Wow, really? Isn't this a no-brainer! When can any degree teach you about people skills anyways? If someone stopped me on the road and asked me for advice on how to sharpen people skills, I wouldn't in my wildest dreams have said 'You know what? In the good old days you could simply go to a business school. But times are bad, my lad! Those schools are simply not what they used to be' The truth is that a degree wasn't ever supposed to do that, so lets not blame the schools for it.

    4. The MBA programs propagate Management fads.
    Contradictory and hypocritical! On the one hand we blame the business schools for teaching us theories on scientific management that were probably true 50 years ago and then we blame them for teaching management fads that are more relevant today. I say, give it a rest! Every degree has a bit of history and a bit of what is relevant to ensuring your present and future. What is a fad anyways? We make it a fad, all of us. We are all doing it, adopting fads in our daily lives everyday. The MBA programs are simply part of that factory, not apart from it. So please don't make it sound like they cannot be excused for it.

    5. The pressures of succeeding at the MBA have weakened safeguards against cheating.
    Right. Everyone knows what is being hinted at. Clearly all those Chinese students are top of any school's plagiarizing headaches. But come on. The fact is that these students come from a very competitive society. For them, only the fittest survive. They don't have the smothering governments and social institutions in their countries who will tolerate under-performers and further support them with benefits, social service, council flats and cash allowances. The people who cheat do it because they have had a constant fight for basic security and resources in their lives. So, who can we blame here - the schools for not having safeguards or the mentality that the MBA is a ticket to lucrative employment. The answer is neither. The schools should not need safeguards and the so-called bottom line mentality doesn't actually exist; it is a myth. The attraction is not lucrative employment, but the freedom from inequality and deprivation. The blame, if any, is on the outside world: the businesses that always take rank and performance in school as an indicator, sometimes a pre-requirement, of being capable to perform their jobs. As a society, we have created these rules to separate the wheat from the chaff. And quite frankly, those rules have always existed. The cheaters, rule breakers are simply survivors and every generation has its own. If businesses want the more practical, street smart people who can make stuff happen, then the cheaters fit the bill more than anyone else. The safeguards for any moral values are needed in the society, in our business, at homes. We cannot give schools all the accountability for it.

    My whole point is you cannot have a complete, fair, all encompassing, theoretical yet practical education. The MBA is far from perfect, but it is just a degree. The only important thing is that people should personalise their MBAs. You should take what you want from it and as long as you do that, and the school allows you to personalise the experience, then there are no problems.

  •  
    7

    Geoffrey James, Sales Machine

    10/19/07 | Report as spam

    Gee....

    Just out of curiosity, how much did your MBA set you back?

    And if you used it to get into a management position, how's the angry attitude working for you? Just curious.

    And what was all that stuff about Chinese students? I have no idea what you're talking about.

  •  
    8

    justmyviews

    10/20/07 | Report as spam

    Re: Gee

    The anger is directed to all those so called experts mentioned in your article who analyse and write about management as if it is some science and then complain that current management education is doing bad.

    Yes, I have been to a management program myself. But I was smart enough to understand that it was part of social studies and not a science. I got what I wanted from it and no, I did not go into it thinking that oodles of money was waiting magically on graduation.

    As for the cheating on the programs, if you would delve into those numbers and reasons you would find that most of the cheating on these courses is being blamed on foreign students and a majority of them come from non-English speaking nations such as China. My entire point is that the managament schools should not need to have safeguards in place, so where is the question of them having to put enough safeguards?

    As for my attitude, it is serving me very well indeed. I am known to be a straight talker and I won't talk about things I don't know about. I think your article wasn't complete and I know many others who would agree with what I had to say. I hope there is nothing wrong in others expressing their views?

    Also let me make it clear, my anger is not directed towards you. You have done a much better job on your other article about what Executives have to say about MBAs. That is a much better article with more balanced views. So thank you for that.

  •  
    9

    Geoffrey James, Sales Machine

    10/22/07 | Report as spam

    Foreign Students

    During the research for this article I did not see a single reference to foreign students as an issue. Quite the contrary.

    The main thrust of the irritation seemed to be directed at upper-middle class white students born in the U.S.A., many of whom apparently feel entitled to everything, and who therefore believe that they're justified in cheating.

    The place where I've heard a lot of flack about foreign students is when writing elsewhere about engineering degrees, and there the complaint is that U.S. students aren't going into engineering and, when they do, they're consistently outperformed by foreign students, many of whom have a better background in science and math than those educated in America's touchy-feely public school system.

    So I really think you're off-base on that particular point, at least as far as the article is concerned. I'm not denying that there haven't been racist remarks bandied about in some quarters when it comes to foreign students, though. Just that it's not part of the article, so I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't read racism into my work.

  •  
    10

    justmyviews

    10/22/07 | Report as spam

    Re: Foreign Students

    I wasn't trying to read anything racially biased in your article. However, I do know that in schools where the international student intake is high, foreign students are often associated with plagiarising content. And I agree with you, this is unfair. In my personal experience most of them are hardworking, and more open to change and respectful of different points of view even though they may sometimes struggle to put their views across.

    Each one of us is a manager, in personal or professional life. Management requires a broad set of competencies and a lifetime can't be enough to claim mastery at one. I think it?s just unfair to blame the schools for not doing so in 1 or 2 years. I am not saying that these schools can?t improve on their programs; I just think for people (potential students and recruiters alike) who know what they want, they will be able to find a management school out there that will give it to them.

  •  
    11

    irawan.wibisono@...

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    Foreign Students

    I think that Geoffrey James got a point there...
    1. Blaming on the foreign student and pointing finger especially to Chinese is totally racial. When I did my MBA, some of the cheaters was chinese, but the majority of cheaters had blonde hair and blue eyes (FYI, I am not chinese, but yes, I was a foreigner, and a lot of foreigner did not cheat, not in my class at least).
    2. As for plagiarizing, I agree that my chinese friend had a tendency of plagiarizing but that mostly because they did not know that copying and pasting is not "correct" (this is true especially for those that just come directly from mainland china). However, once you "educate" them, they learn hard not to do it. It never is about race, its just about the different mindset that they have...

  •  
    12

    regaliathai@...

    10/24/07 | Report as spam

    PLAGIARISM: NON-RACIAL ACADEMIC IMPROPRIETY

    Now finally we are seeing a more impartial and sensible discussion. Plagiarism indeed has nothing to do with race or nationality; it has more a conception and understanding of the rules governing academic impropriety. Below is a link to an article ?STUDENT PLAGIARISM AND CHEATING IN AN IT AGE? by Dr. Karl O. Jones, Dr. Juliet M. V. Reid and Dr. Rebecca Bartlett of which provides a better insights to the issues related to plagiarism.

    http://ecet.ecs.ru.acad.bg/cst05/Docs/cp/sIV/IV.8.pdf

  •  
    13

    LWeller2

    04/30/08 | Report as spam

    Survival of What?

    Ironic that "survival of the fittest" is the term applied to cheaters. Their behavior clearly makes them one of the "less fit."

  •  
    14

    philip.pickard@...

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    My 2cents...

    After reading this article and the subsequent thread I contemplated on what
    and how I should add to this discussion. I think that have recently completed
    my MBA this year on a very International MBA programme I have quite a
    substantial experience. I understand what the author is implicating, because
    this is echoed frequently in the business world, but 'adityatuli@...' made some
    excellent and very intelligent counter arguments. One of the major
    misunderstandings is that this article appears to have been written based on
    an American perspective, whereas my guess would be that the following
    comments were made from someone outside the US. Having lived in the US
    for many years before returning to Europe where I took my MBA the difference
    in culture and understanding are vast. I would expect that most MBA
    programmes in the US are populated by Americans and most enter prior to
    even getting their first job, whereas in Europe for example, most MBAs are
    populated by students from countries all over the world and very often the
    classes are much smaller than those in the US. For example we had a small
    class, but with 12 different nationalities and the average age was 32, so you
    can imagine that there was quite a lot of real world experience.
    I think that this article takes the perverbial paintbrush to all MBA programmes
    and paints them all the same colour. This is far from the reality that is out
    there. When I decided to pursue an MBA I did not want a 'traditional or typical'
    MBA programme that had 200 people in the class, I searched for one that had
    80% mix of international students and a class size of under 30 students. Why,
    because I wanted a personal learning experience. I wanted to learn the
    business skills, the methodology, the fads, the people skills, the MBA box of
    tools, but I also wanted to learn not only through interrogation of the
    Professors but also from working with the other students, learning from their
    experience and their cultures.
    If I was to apply this article to the MBA programme that I particpated, it
    wouldn't make sense and this is what I believe 'adityatuli' tried to point out,
    the article is a generalisation of MBA programmes and would go further to say
    it's an American generalisation of American MBA programmes. Does this
    make me racist, I do not think so. In addition to the comments regarding
    Foreign Students, so I would partly agree with adityatuli's comments on the
    reasons why some foreign students behave the way they do, there are very
    many cultural traits that we from the West do not yet understand about
    cultures from the East. I also think there was a misunderstanding that
    occurred between the author and adityatuli. On our programme we had an
    experience where someone was caught cheating and causing problems. The
    student was Indian, he had received warnings, was exposed to an enquiry,
    dismissed, appealed and subsequently removed from the programme. I only
    wish that this type of process could be implemented in the real business
    world, if it was then maybe Enron and Worldcom would not have happened,
    because it seems that B-Schools are much more efficient at catching cheaters
    than the real world of business.

    I do believe that this website is open to a global audience, could you please
    vet your articles to be sure that you represent a global perspective, or the
    basis of your research, indicate so in the text, so in this case the research
    appeared to be about American MBAs rather than International MBAs so we
    should expect to read something like "5 Hard truths about American MBAs",
    thus avoiding further misunderstanding.

    Best Regards,
    Phil

  •  
    15

    Pete Malpass

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    education is more from peers than classroom

    My father was a Dean, VP Academic Affairs, and later President of an American state university. He said that you learn more from those you go to school with than in classroom and from texts. The importance of education is not what you learn in the classroom but how you use it, and you learn to use it from your peers, not the professor. It made sense to me. Therefore, when teaching - always force students to work with each other and as often as possible - outside of their comfort zones. That's more like the world of managing!

  •  
    16

    ghbranigan

    01/06/08 | Report as spam

    B School Research

    Please help me with my B-School research by telling me what shcool you attended!

  •  
    17

    regaliathai@...

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    Plagiarizing Headaches

    When you wrote: "Clearly all those Chinese students are top of any school's plagiarizing headaches" I believe you would have supporting facts right at your finger tips. Would you care to share your information? It would be interesting to learn which are the Universities awarding a MAP.

  •  
    18

    daniel_wooden@...

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    Work for it!

    I Attended a State School, it was not a Bachelors degree it was an Associates. Computer Networking Technology was my major. Its courses are for the most part up-to-date. Technology changes at such a fast rate it is impossible to have classes on every new advance. All the operating system classes I have taken, I use at work (Novell, Windows, and Linux.) My hardware class I use on a daily basis (fixing and troubleshooting issues with PC's) My Networking Classes (Cisco 1 and 2) I use almost daily...granted we don't use Cisco we use HP Curve Switches, but they use the same syntax on the command line.
    In my field communication is very important just as it is anywhere else. Working in groups was one major concept stressed. Communication and working in groups go hand in hand. I believe they are important if you want a successful business. The degree helps but it?s what you get out of the degree that counts. The experience you acquire and the people you meet are the ways in which to advance your salary. Also the impression you make on the people you meet. Your willingness to learn, show promise, and bring new Ideas to the table. Don?t expect to get paid?work for it. The Harvard and silver spoon thing are a little out dated and the majority of people these days that have anything have earned it.

  •  
    19

    ernie.zibert@...

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    MBA Value - necessary but not sufficient

    I don't know why we continue to re-cycle this argument. The answer is simple - a MBA is simply a necessary but not sufficient condition for a good manager, a good leader or an effective business.

  •  
    20

    oxanakr

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    RE: null

    I absolutely agree with the comment that MBA has been on the hot spot for so long and probably will stay there until a new or better (who knows) programme comes along.
    It is a CPD which has and provides a good bonus for many, at least those that I have met. So at the end it is a personal choice to take it or not, to find the MBA that can really pay off the efforts.

  •  
    21

    catalinaj

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    RE: null

    This is insane! I am a soon to be MA graduate and this is stealing all my thunder. And let me tell you something: the amount of work, research and reading required to get through the MBA program is overwhelming, but I did it with the thirst of knowing more, gaining value and ultimately, stepping up my career. For all of you writing these lines, I have one messagge: attempt the MBA proram at UNR, as an adult, with a full-time job, a family with a two year old, and tell me then that it was easy to go through it and cheating is the key. I don't know what kind of programs you guys researched, but here, at UNR, the program is so well developed that cheating is not even an option. The essays due are entirely based on one's personal take and views of a particular reading, movie or presentation. Projects due incorporate so much more than what you can find on some online cheating site. I will close by confidently saying that no one I know is not putting in the required amount of work, and everybody does it for the right reason: to grow as a person, as a professional, and hopefully make a change.

  •  
    22

    manaralnazer@...

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    MBA worth

    In my humble opinion, it is important to establish the weighting of benefits the MBA provides for the employee and employer. The weighting is more in favour of the employee than the employer, ultimately due to that its up to the employee to utilize the theoretical academics the MBA provides in the employers work environment and how well the synergy can be achived.
    Another aspect would be that the MBA raises the stature due to its teachings of self research and problem solving skills that render the MBA a resourceful employee willing to step up to a challenge.

    Consequently a good MBA program embedded in a diligent employee will surely flip the favours onto both sides.
    I agree with the fact that its a vague statment to say that the MBA is a "win all" requirement, but i surely stand by that the recruiting procedure for an MBA job candidate should test her/him for the core requirements of the position (keeping in mind he is an MBA and will have what it takes) but assess her/his utility of the MBA knowledge needed and (his/her) reasoning of it, and thus judging his benefit of the program.
    One last point, the minimum 3 to 5 year experience prerequisite for applying to the program will also help the recruitment to be clearer in what type of business this person is structured and trained in and elaborate on why this person attempted the MBA designation in the first place; was it to diversify his skills or to further specialize and add to her/his resourcefulness. (the latter will be the case that is safer to choose).

  •  
    23

    Murapa

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    RE: null

    so wats the bottom line? should we not take the course?

  •  
    24

    ahuria@...

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    RE: null

    Geoffrey,

    I am an aspiring MBA student. My aspirations for an MBA stem from a combination of both (a) learning and (2) employement opportunities - compensation included. Here is what I think:

    Hard Truth No. 1: The ROI is still better than any other pos-grad degree and is still better than a graduate degree ROI in the long run (15-20 years)
    Hard Truth No. 2: The theoretical concepts have to be applied and improved upon. It is the "arms' that and MBA provides the student with not the "technique" cause that has to be learnt the hard way. Compare this with non-MBAs who do not have access to any such foundation
    Hard Truth No. 3: People Skills can not be taught, true. That said, an MBA is a good opportunity for an individual to discover what his/her potential is with regards to people skill capabilities
    Hard Truth No. 4: Like I said earlier, the empahasis is on teaching concepts - its is upto the individual to connect concepts. Do u expect b-schools to hand feed students to that extent and risk inhibiting the development of mental faculties?
    Hard Truth No. 5: Can u give us the sample size of the Academy of Learning and Education's study? and the exact definition (as used by them in the study) of cheating?

  •  
    25

    ahuria@...

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    Agree with Aditya here

    Can u guys at BNET give Geoffrey a job to do? He seems pretty bored!

  •  
    26

    Boxxy

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    It is TRUE

    I am really agreed to all the points. I have seen MBAs going top to bottom in the very first years of their job. Managing people is the most important key to succeed in the business. A young graduate faces lot of rejections on this front as he has to work with most of practical work-owners.

    Customer rejcection and competitive enviornment also plays a key role in it. Continious improvement and producing best services is something which one can understand after having a practical experience in the field. And there these young lads finds the diffculty.

  •  
    27

    ahuria@...

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    Boxxy

    How long have u been working for? ..out of curiosity, that is...You raise a good point in that graduates have to face a lot of rejections...that said, think about the fact that b-schools only admit people with (typically) 3+ years of work experience - enough time for them to have faced rejections in whatever fields they have come from and learnt to cope with. In fact this is one of the things b-schools look for..how did u cope with rejections and come out stronger..point to ponder on

  •  
    28

    FaisalShaikh

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    RE: null

    i am 38 years old with 16 years work experience, out of which 8 years at managerial level. I am seriously thinking of pursuing part time MBA as I feel it will help me propel faster my career path. Any comments whether I should take this course?

  •  
    29

    globalthink

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    An MBA is more than about $$$

    For any of you considering getting an MBA, I still think it is wise to do so - even if I find the article true! Why? Because it is worth something - As we all know education is important - and once you have the degree (as cliche as this will sound) it is yours. Period.

    I encourage you to be realistic about the market demand and salary level to curb your disappointment. I know both were challenges for me upon graduation.

  •  
    30

    Snowflash

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    Response to Null

    I am 63, just finishing my MBA next month, with 30+ years of management and think it is the best personal investment in time and money I have ever made. I wish I would have done it 40+ years ago, it would have shortened the learning curve working with people! Go for it, it definitely is worth it.

  •  
    31

    mcrey_banderlipe

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    Finding the real purpose

    Pursuing a leadership degree like an MBA is useless if you cannot apply it back to the corporate life. I have seen many undergraduate students who proceeded immediately to MBA schools without gaining real-life and real-time experience where they can be trained to become leaders.

    And as I notice, anybody can be an MBA degree holder now. Even a boss' secretary, or an office clerk can earn the degree. It only depends on where did you took it.

    The question now is, whether you earned your MBA under a bamboo tree or from a recognized university, what will you do next?

    Sorry if I'm so blatant about MBAs for now. Like what the author have said, what's lacking is in finding the real purpose of taking it.

  •  
    32

    philip.pickard@...

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    Can you help me find that bamboo tree?

    If you can get MBAs from under a Bamboo tree can you please tell me where? I
    just spent a boat load of money, quit my job and had no income for a year, now I
    have the difficult task of finding a new job in a new country and you tell me that
    I could have found an MBA under a Bamboo tree.....shucks.

    Why don't you go stand by the coffee machine with the author, maybe you can
    discuss the reason the credit crunch is messing up the worlds financial situation.

  •  
    33

    mcrey_banderlipe

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    Reply: Under a bamboo tree

    "Under a bamboo tree" just a figurative language because so many schools mushrooming MBA programs that sometimes, the school may not be capable to offer. Check their faculty profile, check their areas of specialization, check their extensive exposure to research. Check everything, its program might introduce only courses in theoretical leadership without practical applications. And they're claiming that they are the No. 1 MBA school in terms of this and that.

    I agree with what the author have said. I guess you have to check also the other MBA blogs and see that some reforms have to be made with the program so that it would cater to addressing the needs of students to become, leaders. An MBA degree is worth it if the students will be trained to become effective, not only theoretical leaders.

  •  
    34

    Snowflash

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    response

    So what is so wrong with a secretary wanting to gain the knowledge and understanding of business to advance themselves. As a PMP, and soon to have earned a MBA,in Project Management and Conflict resolution, I have mentored several secretaries who have gone on the earn their PMP and become excellent project managers. Likewise, I am sure there are many excellent secretaries who once they learn more about business become good leaders, or other leadership positions in the business environment. Not all MBAs run businesses, they just understand how business are run.

  •  
    35

    mcrey_banderlipe

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    Thank you

    I really do appreciate your comment. In fact, I know some who are secretaries of their bosses learning all the facets of their business. They earned their MBAs already.

    I was just sad that up to know, they are still working as secretaries. I am hands down to their efforts to be of service to the company, but I guess they should be given the opportunities to become great leaders as well.

    When will it be? I hope maybe soon.

    Thanks a lot.

  •  
    36

    mcrey_banderlipe

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    For clarification

    Sorry if you feel that I'm insulting the MBA program. Just to assure you, I'm not.

    It's just that I am deeply concerned on the outcome of the students who graduated from the program right now, based on the experience of nameless people that I know. Good for some who assume higher posts, greater opportunities to become execs, and even receive higher raise. But not all graduates will fall to their shoes.

    As I've said, some reforms in the way the MBA should be delivered must be implemented so that graduates will become valuable resources for effective leadership and good governance. Good thing some schools are doing that already.

    With this, I agree with what was said by an executive in another blog related to MBA: Focus on the PROGRAM, not on the degree. With that, I believe that an MBA will soon regain its luster as an academic program that trains students to become effective leaders of society who will make a difference.

    I hope I was able to provide sufficient clarifications. Thank you very much.

  •  
    37

    srini2007

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    RE: null

    I have work experience more than 10, now doing MBA in distance mode.What is your openion on this?

  •  
    38

    mcrey_banderlipe

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    well, just keep it up

    You have started your MBA, and it's impracticable not to finish that.

    After your MBA, gear yourself to become a corporate leader, not just further increase your work experience.

  •  
    39

    Snowflash

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    response

    I agree, the MBA, won't necessarily get you where you want to be right away, but you sure are given opportunities that you never would have had otherwise. Earning an MBA is just like any other major advancement technique, earn the degree, then work your tail-off and latch on to the opportunities that you did not see before.

  •  
    40

    mcrey_banderlipe

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    Response

    I agree.

    An MBA should open you to a vast of opportunities to make a difference in yourself and in others. It's an advantage after all. Just use it well.

    We'll back you up and support you of your endeavors.

  •  
    41

    tjcrux

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    Personal views

    Fact 1: MBA is to be considered more of a career switching move. For others you're almost there at the position your MBA will supposedly bring you to. In both cases, you are already earning your big bucks. So the MBA boost may not be as significant in any case. ROI probably needs to be calculated for starting careers only.

    Fact 2: To get the most from your MBA, you need to know what you want finally and choose your college and coursework accordingly. If you arent going to be admitted to a class you want, you might as well not do the program.

    -Tejas

    Fact 3: Most of the better schools prefer candidates with managerial exp for this very reason!

    Fact 4: Yes they do propagate management fads. But the basis of the fad was ultimately a fact! A so called "fad" may work terribly with person X but work brilliantly with person Y. MBA empowers you with options, the individual needs to choose the one that works for him & the org. Its all about change & new ideas (Doesn't mean you reinvent the wheel always)

    Fact 5: Absolutely true. Perhaps because colleges expect a certain maturity from their candidates atleast at the age of 33! Who loses in the end? All said and done, this needs to be checked and brought to the standards of non-business academics.

    All the above are my personal views. Any program will have its highs and lows. Takes time to adapt and readapt with changing environments, changing perceptions and changing requirements. All the above may be true in many occassions but cannot be a generalization. Every MBA aspirant must be aware and must must choose his path accordinglY!

  •  
    42

    kikot

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    RE: null

    Guys, I think all of us are missing a point here... the value of MBA degrees derives mainly from premier league schools and the associated relationship building ... the alumni... that will propel your career...

    Stan

  •  
    43

    charles@...

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    too right!

    The article is 'spot on'. I have an MBA in finance, and a Masters of Business in IT Management, but I am an Internal Auditor. Thank God that in Australia these courses do not cost too much - even though the costs are going up - because there certainly isn't much of a ROI in them, at least not for me. Worst still, the fact that anyone can get an MBA these days off the Internet certainly has made its value decline considerably, in my opinion. The other thing that I totally agree with the article about is in regard to what you actually learn. In practical terms, only about 1/4 of what I went through was useful in real life, and that was because when doing the degrees I had already accumulated over 10 years of real world experience. Having said all that, I still prefer to have the option to write those little letters after my name, but that is not always wise in certain situations, for the risk of being called 'impractical' or too theoretical. Also, a university's name frequently proves very little about the quality of the 'knowledge' acquired. Many years ago someone told me that the reason you do an MBA is to learn how to find ways to learn, so you could solve problems. I am growing more and more agreeable to that thought.

  •  
    44

    Snowflash

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    response

    Not all the MBA earned on line are useless, (yes I know you mentioned the Internet) as often the student is a working individual who travels a great deal and can only get their degree on-line. I as one am that type of student, thus, 18-20 hours a week spent on-line for classes is not unusual. It has only taken about 21/2 years. So I take offense when someone implies on-line, AKA Internet classes are a breeze. By the way the school chosen is accredited, so the MBA is accepted the same as typical classroom.

  •  
    45

    globalthink

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    It is all about who you know

    This article is disturbing to me as I have an MBA - and, unfortunately, I have to agree with the author. More and more, I realize that it is all about who you know - than what you know.

    Let's be real here - as hard, humbling and frustrating as it is - reality is always different than theory.

    Getting an MBA is about theory and not real world application.

    Also, friends, it does make a difference where you get your MBA.

  •  
    46

    Faxmebeer

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    I Have To Disagree

    I think it does very much matter where you get your MBA. I've read that one year after college, 80% of Harvard grads have obtained full time jobs in their fields. 80%?!? If I invested over $100,000 and only had an 80% shot at a full time job within a year, I'd be pretty down on the MBA as well.

    Going to a regionally recognized school that will cost far less makes more sense, if you don't plan to work in New York City. I couldn't that imagine someone coming to my market (Kansas City) with an Ivy League MBA has a shot at any job that would offer them a reasonable return on their investment.

  •  
    47

    atsbusiness

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    Where You Get Your MBA

    Does NOT matter. How you approach and apply the learning matters more. Even if you don't get the job because someone mocks your school and doesn't take you seriously, you can turn that around real quickly on that company. You can start your own if you focused your attention and actually learned something in class. I have been able to do just that and the mockers keep asking me, "How'd you do that so quickly?" I just tell them they provided the fuel and I was grateful for my experience with them.

  •  
    48

    mcrey_banderlipe

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    I agree

    So many MBA schools have many claims of their own. They may be the top MBA school for this and that, as I said in my previous reply.

    If you're decided to pursue an MBA because you believe it can increase your potentials of becoming effective leaders, then I suggest you really have to perform a due diligence of the schools you are applying for to validate everything of what these MBA schools are boasting of.

    Check their faculty, check their specializations, check their curricula, check their researches, as in everything that can help you decide to pursue the MBA in that school.

  •  
    49

    bill1633

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    MBA: TMH

    The MBA has been, for over 25 years, just Too Much Hype. The bottom line is
    that after 5 years in the real world of business practice the playing field levels. If
    you're capable, curious and committed it will show. If you think the sheepskin
    allows you to coast, that will show, too.

  •  
    50

    Faxmebeer

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    RE: null

    An MBA, like any other sort of education, can be wasted on any given individual. It's not a golden ticket, but it certainly isn't an albatross, either. What some people fail to consider is that what you're really doing by obtaining your MBA is speeding your learning curve. If we all had equal access to interested managers at forward thinking employers, then an MBA really would be a waste. However, if you work for the average manager at the average employer that doesn't give a hoot about employee development then the MBA will give you the basis of knowledge that can at least make you more appealing to other employers, the confidence to go after those positions, and the basis of knowledge (theoretic as it may be) to increase the likelihood of success in the position.

    By all means, though, if your employer is training you broadly and promoting you freely and you know that you're never going to have to go compete for a new job, then save your money and skip the MBA.

  •  
    51

    atsbusiness

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    Absolutely Valid!

    I found all of the comments in this article valid. In addition to the MBA, one must have a track to the corner office too. I have a MSIS and Six Sigma Black Belt training, yet have not been even close to being considered for a VP position.

  •  
    52

    gasior@...

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    MBA versus experience

    Training and credentials help give you knowledge however it the execution that makes the difference. I am in the middle of a career change and would suggest that an MBA is most useful for those in their twnties and diminishes quickly as you get older. Employers discount the value of a MBA against experience. Show me what you can do, not what you know.

  •  
    53

    regaliathai@...

    10/24/07 | Report as spam

    MBA versus experience

    Agree. Competency is the ability to perform and deliver. MBA, however, provides an edge, but if you don't cut, the door is still open nevertheless, but for your EXIT!

  •  
    54

    Snowflash

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    response

    Most of them require an MBA!

  •  
    55

    bizedu

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    leyucz (bizedu china)

    Merely knowing about the truth is not what true leaders are bothered most. Training of effective true leadership and people skills-based management competencies can not be supported by most current Bschools' curriculum setup needs. B-schools have to innovate to shine. But when it shines, I guess it deserves a different name. Like Taoism described, that can be named is not what can be true forever....

  •  
    56

    regaliathai@...

    10/24/07 | Report as spam

    The Double Cs

    Interesting analogy. But would it not be more appropriate to to track two phrases further and compare B-schools to the named that produce graduates to serve the unnamed (industry) and undertake the challenges of Constant Changes?

  •  
    57

    2SW/OM

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    Not true

    While MBA is a lot of theory and little practice, a good program does teach you to be an out of the box thinker and have a big picture perspective, a high value asset that's not easy to acquire. I do agree, though, that there has to be a passion for the field of study and obtaining an MBA degree shouldn't solely be motivated by salary.

  •  
    58

    kdunbar

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    Agree or Disagree

    The article isn't an agree or disagree statement. You have to look at the bigger picture. Some people have what it takes and some don't. An MBA doesn't give someone who doesn't have it what it takes to make it as a manager or a leader.

    To put it in perspective, my daughter is in an undergrad BA program which will easily put her in a position to master out in Finance. From her perspective, she truly belives that the degree alone will allow her to step into the position she desires irregardless of any real world experience or irregardless of any inate talents that she may or may not posses. No matter how much I try I cannot get her to understand that the degree doesn't make the manager. Its the person that makes the manager. The degree only gives the person that has what it takes a toolset to work with.

    Myself, I don't have a degree, not even an undergrad yet I have an emense understanding of both theory and practice and alot of years of practical application and success. I am a senior VP of a multi-national company and in line for the divisional COO position. So, agree that the MBA is over rated and disagree that the MBA is essential for the corner office. Organizations should be filling top positions based on if the person naturally has what it takes and not that a person has an MBA or not. Use the degree as a tie breaker.

  •  
    59

    peter@...

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    my 5 hard truths about this article

    I think the article does a lot of injustice to the various programmes out there. There are so many issues in this article that I don't agree with like $100,000 cost etc. I think the authors of the article should be ashamed of themselves for over-generalising and much of the article is simply not true.

    My 5 hard truths about this article:
    1. The university of Bradford offers an excellent MBA distance learning course for only $15,000. That is not expensive and the business school is ranked no. 8 in Europe and no. 2 in the UK. If universities wish to cash in on demand and charge $100,000 for such programmes then that is up to the student to decide.

    2. Distance learning courses allow managers to stay at work whilst applying what they learn directly at work. This is helpful for both employer and employee.

    3. Many MBA programmes enable students to choose from a variety of optional modules to tailor their course to their own career goals or to suit their experience.

    4. An MBA is a management programme so why should a student learn how to be a salesman? The MBA does teach adequate sales, marketing, operations management. MBA graduates are normally employed to manage and lead. An MBA should not be expected to be an accountant or salesman that is incredible to suggest.

    5. An MBA is a masters programme so if a student has studied finance or engineering or Law or IT then surely an MBA will help that person to understand management. A general MBA can be criticised for not teaching sales skills but please give us some credit for having prior qualifications before taking an MBA.

  •  
    60

    Snowflash

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    response

    I believe that a MBA is a Business generalist degree much like a BA is a liberal Arts generalist degree. Each degree gets one ready for the next step in their life.

  •  
    61

    Geoffrey James, Sales Machine

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    George Bush MBA

    If you're interested in the MBA issue, you might want to check out my blog entry on the subject:

    http://blogs.bnet.com/salesmachine/?p=153

  •  
    62

    sebolen

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    From a current MBA Student

    I think some parts are true and some parts are not. I am a current MBA student who had a decision to make when deciding to directly enter the MBA program. First, I was required to have me student loans deferred for at least a year when my husband (boyfriend at the time) and I wanted to purchase a home; that meant going on to school after I received my BS in Accounting.

    Second, because I need want to have the CPA license, I need 150 credit hours. I could have either double majored and went to school for an extra semester and commute 70 miles or attempt to be accepted into another school since I was working and living in a different city. From my calculations, the MBA was only 3 more classes than the 150 credit hours requirment. I thought if I was spending the money on extra classes, I might as well have a new title to go with it.

    I do think that my MBA was a little pricey for the education I have received. It does not prepare me to fulfill my knowledge requirements to sit for the CPA exam but the program never said that it would. Also, I feel that the article is correct in that MBAs are not prepared for management right away, but part of this mindset might come from the past. In my understanding, most MBA degree holders were older because they went to school after years of working most likely as a manager and therefore, the title resounded with the person, not that they had learned their management skills prior to earning the degree.

    I did feel that my management classes did offer some help with understanding how some people work and the simulations I was required to participate in, however, the best thing my company did when hiring me was to do behavioral interviewing. There is no good way to lie your way through it since you need to give real examples in that the detail is in the answer. I have read that many companies are using more and more behavioral interviewing techniques to find the employee that they are looking for.

  •  
    63

    Alex List

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    RE: null

    I have an MBA degree along with an engineering degree. It is the best combination to have a better change to land in higher paying job. It has happened to me. An engineering degree alone is not enough to indicate your intentions to get a managerial job.
    A better education is always better than no education.
    Alex List

  •  
    64

    shallen@...

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    2 years and no change

    I'm 2 years post grad from a mid-career MBA and realize that I'll be paying off loans until I retire. I believe getting my MBA wrecked my marriage, gave me undo stress and is proving useless to my advancement.

  •  
    65

    marcoppola

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    ROI a Great Consideration in Choosing Program

    As a mid-career professional earning six figures, it made no sense for me to invest $100K+ in a degree that would not make that much of a difference in my earning potential. I did, however, want to gain a better understanding of the major aspect of business and to tie concepts and processes together. I chose a ranked state school program, and while some of the professors have no right to be in a classroom, I am generally happy with my choice.

  •  
    66

    akstem

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    It all depends

    There are many variables that are unique to the individual and the company they end up working for that will determine whether the MBA is a good investment or not. In my case, I think it was a good decision. I went full time and my salary almost doubled when I graduated. At the same time, it did not change who I am. In other words, without the MBA I would still be an ambitious individual who loves learning and wants to contribute.

    Everyone is wired differently. I've got a super-entrepreneurial friend. In fact, he was so entrepreneurial he didn't even bother to finish high school and wouldn't be caught dead on a college campus. Is he right and I'm wrong? No, his path to success is different than mine.

    I totally agree that B school education does not prepare you for all the practical realities of the business world. I've heard it said that an MBA prepares you for 10 years down the road when you've moved up into a more strategic role in the company. First you have to slog through the trenches and learn the blocking/tackling. Again, that all depends on your circumstances and how much pre-MBA experience you have.

    Finally, there are an awful lot of positions out there that have the words "MBA Required" or "MBA Preferred." I'm stating the obvious here but for all the debate among academics, plenty of companies still value it and consider it the cost of entry.

  •  
    67

    Morpheus II

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    Practical Insights on the MBA

    My to the MBA conundrum, here is the B-school question: Is there a viable market in the age range 40-70 for gaming and online gaming experiences? Most hotshots (pre-Wii) would say are kidding, my parents would never play video games. This is why MBAs without "context" are bad. Here is the evidence:

    MBA'S MAY BE A MARKETING LIABILITY (requires subscription)
    New Study Finds Those With Degrees Underperform
    By Jack Neff, Published: March 21, 2006

    Would an MBA 25 years old with limited experience have ever dreamed of the Wii? The result is shown below:

    Nintendo Is Ad Age's Marketer of the Year

    Full text of article: http://adage.com/article?article_id=121039

  •  
    68

    philip.pickard@...

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    Clarification...?

    If you're saying that MBA's without experience are the reason why it's getting a
    bad name for itself then I totally agree. I think that there should be a general
    rule for all MBA programmes that should not be broken under any circumstance
    and that is that you must have a minimum of three years of real-world
    experience as a prerequisite, otherwise the MBA just gets devalued, which seems
    to what this article suggests.

  •  
    69

    emmanuelbenoit

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    about cheating

    Enron and Wolrdcom trikcs were not doen by foreign born managers.

    regards,

  •  
    70

    emmanuelbenoit

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    about cheating

    Enron and Wolrdcom dirty tricks were not done by foreign born managers.

    regards,

  •  
    71

    eyephorm

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    Um, well...

    My MBA program (which shall remain nameless) has a serious ongoing trouble with international students plagiarizing. The administration continues to do nothing about it and blames "cultural differences". Some international students also utilize an unauthorized bank of past tests, which includes tests that were not returned to students.

  •  
    72

    kfrey001

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    MBA and small business

    I am in an MBA program and am majoring in Small Business/Entrepreneurship. With what I learn in the classroom, I am able to turn around and directly apply to the company I own. I am having amazing results and could not not be happier with the program that I am in!

  •  
    73

    ddavids75

    10/25/07 | Report as spam

    Re: MBA and Small Business

    What program are you in? Just curious.

  •  
    74

    wrl500@...

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    MBA not meaniful.

    Those teaching, with very few exceptions, have never had direct responsibility running a for-profit organization. Learning "meaningful skills" from someone who has never experienced p&l attainment is next to impossible - unless you count management theory as a practical exercise. By far, more managers excel through and due to their leadership acumen than producing convoluted financial exercises. Leadership cannot be taught. Leadership is learned - something that requires first hand experience. Think otherwise? Place a exemplary MBA academic in charge of delivering results be it managing a MLB team, service company, technology firm, or another organization and forecast your results. You'll reach the conclusion that there is currently no MBA curriculum that can equip an individual for successful delivery.

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    75

    nash1679@...

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    MBA: A ladder

    In Bangladesh, many organizations asks for cadidiates who has completed both BBA and MBA. It is really sorrowful that some organizations do not want to recruit BBA graduates just because of their policy. As a result, numerous BBA graduates are enrolling themselves for MBA programs just after completing their BBA even though they have not gained any practical experinces. And thus, they often end up with an MBA that have a little value. I would like to say that it is the fault of the organization that post the job requirement and I think they have little idea what BBA and MBA are.

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    76

    martinee

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    YOU disapointed me BOYZ

    Only experts is management field can criticise on this, obviously
    and that expert could be an MBA or a non MBA, the real management skills are often God gifted but MBA degree is to polish yorself and as an MBA student, its my expeirence that it really improve your management skills no matter what you are gaining from a specific course it may be outdated but the different things you come across in gaining that degree actually works, because most of management schools got environment like an enterprise and it is more like an organization rather than just a tution centre , there is an HR, Finance, Admin departments the designational hirarchy from VP, dean, directors etc all look like a proper corporate world so MBA student dont need to be on a house job like doctors as they are getting used to the organizational environment seemlessly they are learning the actual thing, SO MY EXPERT CRITIC FRIENDS YOU ARE MANAGERS GOOD FOR YOU, BUT THE MANAGERS WITH MBA DEGREE GOT A CERTIFICATE A PROOF, a bricklayer without a certificate from autherised institute, can have dificulties in getting a job in reputed construction company, regardless of experience than managing people and business is a much bigger responsibility maaaaaaaan......its like every one can drive a car but license is needed nigers, so STOP BACKBITING MBAs, and atleast try not to damage the real image if you cant magnify it LETS BECOME UNITED and try to share your practical knowledge with MBA students and in return get our ciews as well, as some one told me SHARIN is CARIN, grin

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    77

    jwhite04@...

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    Value depends on program and program type

    At the risk of stating the obvious here, the value received depends on the program. Some recent research indicates that the MBA is still a very valuable proposition but if you are going full-time to a top-ten program you are going to pay a very high price. This clearly impacts ROI. Even so, such programs do show a positive ROI, even looking out only 10 years. When you look at schools not in the top-ten, and that offer part time programs (you don?t have to quit your job so the opportunity costs are much less) the ROI?s tend to be very high.

    I agree with some of the discussion about what an MBA program promises. I?ve read literature from many schools that promise that their graduates will be able to lead any organization. Really? That seems like a very tall order indeed. I think someone who has just completed an undergrad program and jumps into an MBA would not be in a position to manage much of anything. A person with some experience however would get much more from a quality MBA program ? such a person would be better able to apply what is going on in the classroom with their past and current on-the-job experiences. Some programs have a minimum experience requirement ? some do not.

    Now, what I think needs to be discussed is really how the proliferation of MBA programs of questionable value is damaging the degree. You can enter these programs with a 2.0 undergraduate degree and no GMAT or GRE requirement. All you need is your checkbook (or your employers). When are the employers that provide tuition reimbursement going to start requiring some sort of quality check? I know of one nationally known, for-profit, institution that offers and advanced corporate finance class ? the textbook is a little paperback number that might at best be used as an ancillary text in a beginning undergraduate finance class. Sometimes I think the folks who attend such programs don?t want the knowledge, just the degree. As more and more individuals go through these programs and become part of the workforce the potential for damaging the value of the MBA will be greatly increased.

    J

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    78

    simonhome1

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    I disa(de)gree. What do you want to learn?

    Gathering the benefits from an MBA program is more about understanding what you expect to learn. Whether or not this leads to the delivery of the type of value which is awarded(?) a corner office depends on what skills and experience these new learnings support/suppliment. From my experiences so far, those that inhabit the corner office are too far removed from the business to provide that level of value anyway...I think you'll find those corner offices becoming vacant much more frequently vacant these days! A revolving door. Roll up your sleeves...get involved...be the business! Add this to your MBA knowledge and you will improve your chances of success.

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    79

    bdame@...

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    mba worth it

    My MBA has been my pass to get involved in a lot of things I wouldn't have had the opportunity to do without it. I'm in intl business and my school (thunderbird) specializes in intl business.

    That being said I've worked with some MBA's who are clueless. Just because you have an MBA doesn't mean you can manage a team etc.

    My mba has opened doors.

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    80

    Sundararaju

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    RE: null

    Todays MBA graduates are more theoritical than practical. Lots of theory is being taught without any purpose of implementation during the service period. Again MBA has become a fad.

    S.Rajasukumar.

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    81

    svasilev@...

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    RE: null

    First of all, you can't go get an MBA from an online program and compete. That's what the lawyers of the country went through a decade ago. Beyond that people, you can't be concrete in thinking. The theoretical translates into the practical.....if you have a brain and an ounce of creativity. If not, don't waste your money and just go dig ditches.

    Steve

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    82

    amrkandeel

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    RE: null

    MBA is just a guideline to different bussiness topics academic background and the personality style of MBA student has crucial role to determine whether this study can helpful to cause change or not

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    83

    aparna.vishwasrao@...

    10/23/07 | Report as spam

    MBA degree

    Students seem to be in 7th heaven after getting into a good B SCHOOL and hence lose touch of reality . Ths is further accentuated by corporates willing to pay fat salary packets . As a result what you get is a "product" with a short shelf life .. Worse the product might be relelvant / suitable only in a particular context ..This can change only if a) syllabus is tailormade to suit industry interests b)this has to go hand in hand with in depth conceptual inuts as well c) students should get exposure to the real world at an early stage itself and not just during the summer internship stage d) students should realise thru all these inputs the skill sets required to be succesful in a changing world and also set expectations correct at the entry stage ie they should aspire for those jobs where their aptitude lies ....

    THAT'S quite a lot said ... now back to work .

    ps - this based on my experience in the Indian market across a cross section of MBA institutes ...

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    84

    rjkson

    10/24/07 | Report as spam

    Civil Engineers Dream

    An MBA was one of the best eductaional programmes taken, as it provides an essential business foundation for professionals like myself (Civil Engineer). I am from Jamaica and did my MBA in general maganement with The University of the West Indies; the exposure and skillset learnt equipped me with tools to start my own business.
    Richard J. Jackson
    Civil Engineer
    BSc. MBA

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    85

    egonz

    10/24/07 | Report as spam

    RE: null

    I am an MBA student and I am very proud of what I am learning. I did not choose any elite school, mostly because of the high cost associated with it, never the less, I hope my degree does open doors either at my present employment or somewhere else.

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    86

    ddavids75

    10/25/07 | Report as spam

    Times they are a'changin'

    As we banter about the value of an MBA, doesn't it to some degree beg the question of the value of a college education at all? Let's just be honest. Today's very competitive work environment requires post secondary education of some sort. Particularly here in the US, we put an enormous amount of value on credentials. We ignore people or dismiss their opinions if they don't have them. As I was growing up, I never once considered the possibility of not going to college. In more and more industries, a post secondary degree is the minimum requirement to get a job. So, we all encourage our children to go to college so they can stay at least minimally competitive in the marketplace. Pursuing an MBA is just an extension of that. It's a piece of paper that proves two things: (1) you're trainable and (2) you will actually finish something that you start. The real value of an MBA is in the principles you learn that you're able to take and apply to your real life situations. As a small business owner, getting an MBA for me had nothing to do with getting a better job - I have the best job I could have right now! What it did help me do was know what the heck people were talking about when they asked me for financial statements and used all those fun acronyms as well as understand what my financial statements told them about my business. It also gave me tools to use to apply to problem solving, stategic planning, and analysis. I learned a great deal from my MBA program, but it's value had much more to do with what I learned than it had to do with what job I got afterwards. It may seem contradictory, but I summarize it like this: The number one reason to get an MBA is to expand your own knowledge; while it may open additional opportunities to you, those opportunities are not the ultimate value you get from the degree.

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    87

    DrFeelAwesome

    11/01/07 | Report as spam

    Awesome!

    Well put, well written! Your MBA made you quite erudite! I will be paraphrasing your words in my class, if you don't mind.
    Peace,
    -MM

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    88

    ljwb1

    10/27/07 | Report as spam

    Re:ULSM MBA

    After 20years of chem.eng.practice and consulting I got my self an MBA (FIN.).excellent experience.Today the degree has changed my thinking and made me more effective.I say GO FOR IT , BUT GET SOME EXPERIENCE FIRST.

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    89

    Raj Dubey

    10/28/07 | Report as spam

    5 hard truths about mba

    It would be just right if students first get 1st hand experience in the industry for 3-4 years with at least 1 year in a supervisory position ( managing more than 3 people)before enrolling in an MBA course.
    Learning is maximum in a sense that the assimilation of knowledge and its applicability is maximised if there exists a need. This need will be felt once you are in a situation where someting more is required to be done other than responding intuitively. Only then the education is appreciated and learing is quicker and lasting.

  •  
    90

    term

    10/28/07 | Report as spam

    RE: null

    it is better to get experience first then try to get ur MBA.
    because MBA it is just educational program.
    u can only face problems and solve them by previous experience not by knowledge acquired by MBA.

  •  
    91

    Prabhat17

    10/29/07 | Report as spam

    Mediocrat article

    The article pointed out relatively good flaws of the concerned program, but is not able to generate more of intrinsic appreciation for itself.The facts explained are also quite vulnerable to arguement and is not beyond doubt.

    At the same time ,about the article I can say, MBA program is also having many more weighted plus points which were totally ignored while advocating the so called hard facts.But above all, the author is liable to be congratulated for focusing on the other side of the coin which is oftenly neglected knowingly, for the sake of living happily in fool's paradise.

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    92

    DrFeelAwesome

    11/01/07 | Report as spam

    MBA!

    When Michael Criton's Disclosure came well over a decade ago, I totally laughed at the part where he ripped up on the MBA grads that thought they could handle any job without having an inkling of a clue about the actual processes or information and accouting systems of the individual organizations. It seemed funny at the time since I was getting 2 BBA's concurrently, basically since I'd changed majors more times than I can remember. It was luck: with the 2 degrees, my resume ended up looking good, and getting super-lucky I got an amazing job upon graduating as a manager at AT&T.
    Then I started an MBA a few years later, which was paid for by AT&T. After a couple of great semesters - part time, of course - I went to see the counselor and talked about my plans to get the MBA, and then my PhD, and then give back to the world what I took, by teaching - yes, I knew I'd be taking an 80% pay cut, but life is about the intrinsics. The counselor told me then and there that my MBA was a dead end, and that none of the classes would transfer to the PhD, and it would serve me none by obtaining it. So I ended up changing over to an MSPhD program, and found out that it was much better for the reality of business life. They even worked with me, and gave me credit towards my MS for the classes I'd already taken, even though they didn't truly transfer. I stopped shy of the PhD to teach, and am waiting for our sister university to offer an MEd.
    I must say I agree with the article in many aspects, and can add only that it's the individual that makes the difference. One must stay motivated, study correctly, and keep up on emerging trends(ie - idiotic keywords like re-engineering and the other plethora of them...and do I know what plethora means...) And most of all, be prepared for the actual business that one will go into. After all, BBA, MS, MBA, PhD, are just pieces of paper that say "I put up with __ many years of BS!"
    Cheers to all, and to all MBA's a good year,
    -MM

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    93

    sweetkarma75

    11/06/07 | Report as spam

    MBA - You Get What You Give

    hold an MBA from a top program. I got out of my MBA program some amazing opportunities. My program was practical and applied. Of course, I went into it as a professional with 12 years of experience under my belt.

    What I did find was that classes were skewing younger and younger. I have used many of those skills since I graduated. But I had a foundation of real life experience to help frame the classroom work. Many students had only two to four years of experience. I feel that the decline in the entry standards for MBA programs in terms of professional experience is what is decreasing the value of my MBA.

    However, that said, I would not have traded the opportunity to immerse myself in learning without the distraction of every day professional life. The opportunity to concentrate on my studies allowed me to absorb and apply classroom discussions to real life situations. It made me a better manager and expanded my strategic thinking.

    I would recommend it for the sake of learning and becoming a more well rounded professional - not to cash in on a big paycheck.

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    94

    tglenn1025

    11/09/07 | Report as spam

    RE: null

    I have been able to do little more than get a temporary admin job with my mba (which I now refer to as "my bucks allgone")

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    95

    tbraithwaite

    11/13/07 | Report as spam

    RE: null

    Don't get caught up in the noise. The MBA is still the quintessential post secondary education for business. Be wary of young MBA's that skip from under grad to MBA. They don't have depth that older MBA's have. But in all, they have a better perception of the business and how it all interacts to produce a better widget than the average joe.

    T.

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    96

    jnamador@...

    12/13/07 | Report as spam

    Well balanced...

    Ditto, well said. Your response was a pleasure to read. I for one believe that academic preparation combined with practical application (before during and after)is or should be the standard operational procedure.

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    97

    michaelcompany@...

    12/14/07 | Report as spam

    Good foundation for business

    Every structure stands on a good foundation. Learning management is our corporate foundation.

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    98

    vgates@...

    12/20/07 | Report as spam

    Too many

    MBA's, not unlike law school or other post graduate programs, are seen as the ticket to an increased salary. As has happened with Bachelor's programs, the ever increasing number of applicants results not in the best candidate being accepted but rather an increased number of candidates. This has resulted in candidates being accepted into programs where they otherwise might not have in the past. Candidates who are not as well suited to the program still want good grades. Some may resort to cheating but grade inflation and the pressure to inflate grades is probably more pervasive than cheating.

    More students = more tuition = larger salaries for academia.

    Untenured professors are often evaluated based on student comments and generally higher grades = better comments.

    In the end, as with anything that used to be scarce and is not becoming more common, the more that have it the less it is valued. I would suggest that MBA programs lose their value as much from having an increasing number of graduates than from any perception that the theory taught is inapplicable.

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    99

    donc@...

    01/02/08 | Report as spam

    The paradigm has shifted

    I agree with the points made in this article. As an executive that has managed small to large departments, directed business at entrepreneurial companies and now reside in an international company "corner office" I have found the following trends to be consistent.

    1. Most MBA programs are rigorous and hence graduates indeed learn how to apply their intellect and time.
    2. Prior work experience is a critical requirement for an MBA student.
    3. On the job experience coupled with strong leadership, managers that mentor and increasing levels of job responsibility produce a higher performing employee than any MBA program can wish to produce.
    4. Early to mid-career MBA graduates understand how to couple their education with the real world in a manner that is strategic and results oriented.
    5. The "top 20" MBA programs, though exceptional in their reputation and resources, do not consistently produce a better "product" than any other good business school.

    I've hired over 20 employees with MBAs. Here is what I've experienced. Straight out of school - hard workers who don't "make an impact" for at least 24 months. Hires with 3 plus years of prior relevant experience make an impact within six months. New hires with five plus years of experience make an impact almost immediately.

    When I've hired an MBA graduate from a "top 20 school" I've found that the hire leaves within 18 months for a "better paying job". T

    P.S. We pay in the top 10% of the Fortune 100 in terms of salary.
    PPS. I have an MBA

  •  
    100

    dickwilson2882@...

    01/02/08 | Report as spam

    MBA... speak if you have one!

    Otherwise, keep your thoughts to yourself.

    I have an MBA in Information Technology. Pulled a GPA of 4.0. It was HARD WORK and a great experience. ONE that you would NEVER get getting your Microsoft or CISCO or NOVELL certifications.

    And we even had a few students that were expelled from the program altogether (lost their money to boot) for cheating.

    If you have never the hard work, keep your thoughts to yourself. You're nothing more than a side line fan talking to us, the real players.

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    101

    bcdelozier

    01/02/08 | Report as spam

    Points of this story have merrit

    I agree with Mr. Wilkinson about the certifications in-so-much as they pigeon-hole you to a technical career. I'm experiencing that now. I went through the whole line of tech certs.(A+,MCP, bla...). I have a degree in E.E., I.T. and am finishing my MBA from University of Phoenix. I'll have a 3.9 GPA. I went into the MBA program for the degree just as the article said. Fortunately I had some expectation of what I wanted to get out of this program. I believe that my MBA has merely given me the tools and understanding to BECOME a manager. I'm not hubris enough to think that 18 months of school is going to teach me everything I need to take a top or even middle management position with the accompanying benefits. I do think is should be a determining factor when comparing to top tier candidates for a new-hire position. I also think my MBA should afford me fair amount extra in the salary bracket after I get the job and prove that my degree isn't just a pretty piece of paper on my wall. I think that this article does not place enough blame on the hiring companies. As the article points out, MBA's were a golden key for a long time. The business industry should have recognized that worshiping at the alter of academia has never resulted in anything good; therefore placing too much value on an MBA has resulted a high prices, high expectations and a low value.
    I look at the people that have built huge companies from their garages and have come to realize that in America, it takes a good idea and a lot of hard work and sacrifice to get that dream job; not an MBA. I wish I had come to this realization 10 or 20 years ago.

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    102

    cityju@...

    01/02/08 | Report as spam

    B schools must stop acting as placement service

    In a Unique nexus of b school managemnt,alumni and some MNCs the degree has been overhyped and its quality is going down.Rigorous training does not mean getting up at 5 o clock and sleeping at 1 Am which a bschool in Gurgnaon claims in its information brochure CD.It is against all norms of normal amd intelligent healthy living.Is this Management training? It is more show business.Presentations is sure a good skill but only presentations are not enough to make goo managers.MBA should be restricted to guys with atleast 3 years hard core experience in business and industry.The sykllabus should be lightened and huma values should be included.
    The MNCs should stop pampering MBA grads and paying absurd salaries.What they are trying to prove? Is it helping each other?
    At cost of consumer and shareholders? Look at USA which this article is about.The per capita income is 47000$ and what is cost of best MBA program? Look at India.Per capita income is Rs 30,000 and the Bschools charge Rs 3 to 10 lacs who claim to be premier schools.Same applies to engineering and other propfesionla courses.It is all ridiculous ,absurd and rat race.Not only MBA program uality has to be retored but we have to tone down the hype.MNCs and companies have to play responsible roles in society.By paying hefty salaries to freshers the top executives naturally write big cheques for themselves. It is not very responsible act.It is naked capitalism and concenetration of wealth bewteen a few leaving out and sucking blood of masses.be it USA or UK or India.

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    103

    An Expat in France

    01/02/08 | Report as spam

    A Culturally Biased Assessment?

    It's interesting that cheating and plagarism are highlighted in this article.

    I find plagarism to be of particular interest, due to the fact that in some cultures the ability to regurgitate "accepted" and "proven" management theories and practices is weighted more heavily when determining who is worthy of an advanced degree than professional experience. Some cultures don't consider originality of though to be of significant value until you have PROVEN that you're smarter than the rest of us.

    Does the study mentioned in this article consider these kinds of cultural factors? Is it objective? ...Or is it more like Thomas L. Friedman's "The World Is Flat" - woefully Anglo-centric and insultingly culturally biased?

    By way of illustration: The Case-Study method is rarely (if ever) employed by B-School faculty in cultures where respect for those who came before is expected. A second question, therefore, would be: Who is deciding the value of what is actually learned, and who determines how that knowledge should be represented to the business community around the globe?

    Answer: The hiring managers. If the hiring managers are skilled, trained managers (and know what they need in the position), then the right candidates will be identified and hired. If not, then the business is doomed to underperformance ...unless that hiring manager is incredibly lucky.

    Having lived, worked and earned my MBA in France, I can state from personal experience that, even with directly related professional experience, the academic credentials are almost always presented first on the resume. Theoretically understood to be a stronger indicator of "potential," it is almost always considered above all else by hiring managers when reviiewing a candidate. The MBA, therefore, does not really count for much here, unless it is from one of the top-tier schools (HEC, INSEAD, etc...).

    The very existence of this article, and the level of interest in its topic, I suspect that the same can be said of American businesses and American B-Schools.

    On a side-note: While some top-tier managers here in France are truly good at their jobs, this system of judging potential doesn't always place the best people in the best jobs, resulting in just as many Dilbert-esque jokes here as in the USA.

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    104

    rachess@...

    01/02/08 | Report as spam

    RE: null

    The value of the degree itself is only reflected in the application of such and support received after which generally is expected from the training and "shaping" of the learning to the specific business the MBA joins.

    1. What graduate level program isn't theoretical in nature? Education, Psychology, Literature - all Masters/PH.D are highly theoretical emphasizing fads, trends, and latest interpretations. Very little practical experience is emphasized, training comes on the job.
    2. It isn't about theory, so much as it is about CRITICAL THINKING SKILLS. The MBA is wonderful for promoting integrative analysis, if-then thinking, what-if scenario building, decision making and consequential behavior. A CEO's job is a lot of theory, largely resting on interpreting worldview and facts toward conclusions. An MBA is great mind training.
    3. People who go for an MBA are of a certain type: determined, generally working, interested in self-development, interested in career, ambitious, likes challenges, etc. These people are usually a "cut above" the general workers. The MBA is signal to recruiters that here is someone with capability to do more.
    4. MBA programs do vary in content. Not all are "theoretical" or "practical". It also depends on the person who gets the MBA - if they are arrogant theory citers with no interpersonal skills well they become strategic analysts and researchers, the others manage and grow.

    I have an MBA from a third tier school, am in sales/marketing (yah, I do sales and it does help a LOT) and am independent. The MBA helped me think better and understand my worldview. In small business, it is valued.

    Rachel the MBA

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    105

    rmocg@...

    01/02/08 | Report as spam

    RE: null

    I have an MBA. I ran both Public and Private companies. I taught MBA seekers.
    Unless the student has some actual business experience before enrolling, most of the learning is not valuable. The student just does not understand the language of business or what drives a business. When they understand they actually have to sell something then it clicks. Nothing happens until a sale is made. What is really funny is that the sales people all want to get into marketing and they think an MBA will help them. The marketing people are deficient if they have a MBA but have never sold a thing. And the worst of all is a CEO who does not demand all his or her reports get into the field to call on customers.

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    106

    ataleb

    01/03/08 | Report as spam

    Enough already...

    with this inflammatory rhetoric. I have an MBA. There, I said it. And I am getting tired of hearing the whining surrounding this degree. So, here's my $.02...

    First, an MBA is simply a degree. It is not some hallowed, Ninja-esque training that bestows 20/20 business vision on those fortunate enough to achieve one. The body of knowledge taught in MBA programs provide the essential building blocks that support an *understanding* of business context. The core decision making skills needed to interpret and develop an appropriate strategy within this context is what makes great leaders. The thought that having an MBA guarantees this level of leadership is as ridiculous as the suggestion that graduating from Law School makes you a great lawyer? It's high time that the business elite recognize that MBA training is only one of many attributes that strong leaders need in order to be successful leading & growing companies. And, to those poor CEO's that hired a corrupt, overpaid, ineffectual MBA grad I have only one thing to ask - since when do 3 letters replace due diligence in your HR department?

    Secondly, the business culture in North America is equally to blame in the constant pursuit of the next business panacea. The rotating door of strategic practices (think Lean Manufacturing, Kaizen, Six Sigma etc etc etc) is kept spinning by one thing - the relentless march towards ever increasing share price. If we go back even 20 years, a *good* annual return for a major corporation was in the low single digits. Now-a-days a CEO would find themselves out on the pavement for such dismal performance. So, if a shiny new *corporate re-structuring*, or smoke-and-mirrors *strategic re-alignment* gives the buying public the warm fuzzy we need to drive up stock price, then so be it. Any CEO with an ounce of self-preservation will do exactly what the shareholder is asking. Shame on us, the shareholders, for allowing our collective greed to propagate this mentality.

    Lastly, the assertion that cheating in MBA programs breeds corruption in the business world is the single biggest leap in deduction that I've ever heard. Cheaters are cheaters. They've been around since the first caveman faked a cold to avoid the Brontosaurus hunt. They are in all walks of life and will continue to take the path of least resistance if given the opportunity. Hey, here's an idea. Why don't the academic & legal regulatory bodies...uh, I don't know...regulate! In the case of Enron, it took a national financial crisis that affected millions before the legal community stepped in and did something about it. Can anyone say "Mortgage Crisis"? Mr. James, Are you suggesting that MBA's are responsible? I would assert that CRIMINAL's are responsible.

    Whew...dismounting soapbox now...

  •  
    107

    lbs1978

    01/03/08 | Report as spam

    MBA Validity

    I too, have an MBA and so far it has not really brought me any new opportunities but has deflected some because I am now "overqualified" especially since I live in a small podunk town of about 45,000 in Oklahoma where high paying jobs are not that common for men and definitely not for middle-aged women! I am very proud of the accomplishment but I am not sure I would do it again if I had known it was not going to lead anywhere. One of the main reasons I did it was to teach at the college level and I can still do that at a junior college but most state colleges want you to be working on a doctorate to be considered for professorship. I think that it is just everything seems to be questioned every few years and people think that something isn't important anymore and then people's thought and attitudes change again--it just depends on what they hear.

    I would agree with this article that management skills (like managers really need) are not taught in this curriculum but an MBA is not a management degree-- it is a more glorified business degree. Some management skills could be taught in theory but managing people effectively is probably one of the hardest skills at least for many who are put in that position. Many are put there because of some great achievement or office coup and have no idea how to lead or motivate their staff--and that is why so many workers are disgruntled. Most people want to do their best and need someone who can help them get there...many of today's management leaders are nothing more than corporate clones who do reports and spew the company line. That is not a leader.

    Just like any other degree--the paper does not wave a magic wand and make you anything--you have to take your knowledge, your skills and combine them to make the most of what you have learned in order to be successful.

  •  
    108

    mmountra

    01/03/08 | Report as spam

    Seems very true.

    After a decade in the upper management of a small company in the IT business, I absolutely agree with the above article.

    Fact 5 (plagiarism) seem more realistic to me, since when I was a student I was earning money by making the statistic essays of MBA/Economics students....

  •  
    109

    indramal banger

    01/10/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Five Hard Truths About the MBA

    i think about 2nd point because corporate wants more practical knowledge and also with theory.

  •  
    110

    eric0722

    01/21/08 | Report as spam

    So what's your point?

    It seems to me you've only reinforced this article's entire point that the BMA's value is deminished but that you seemed to want to do the opposite at the beginning of your reply.

  •  
    111

    apugupta

    04/03/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Five Hard Truths About the MBA

    Given the sheer number of bschools and the number of MBAs they are churning out, it is not surprising to see articles of this nature. However, I think if you look at the small number of top-tier programs - say the top-5 or so, you will see that those MBAs do outperform their non-MBA peers. Perhaps that group would have excelled anyhow, due to their personality / intelligence / etc, but they do tend to do better. The upshot is that as more MBA programs start, the importance of the top ones increases as a way to quickly judge quality and safe guard against commoditization.

  •  
    112

    blpeeler

    04/11/08 | Report as spam

    MBA ROI

    Sure, the ROI isn't what it used to be. I believ that part of the problem is the lack of scrutinty on the part of the accrediting bodies. The Local U with a brand-new part-time program can have the same accreditation as the top 50 schools. Naturally, if there is exponential growth in the number of programs with a low starting salary, this will lower the mean, which lowere mean ROI. In Medical,Law, and Engineering schools, one must be the creme de la creme just to be admitted into even the lowest-tiered schools, but b-school is quite different; if you can score a 350-400 on the GMAT, you can get in somewhere.

    Part of the problem is that many believe that "just getting a piece of paper" will lead to increases in salary at their current or future job, so they fork over many thousands of dollars in hopes of having "the corner office." This is propogated by the smaller MBA programs who use slick marketing campaigns. Let's face it, there is demand for MBA programs and these institutions are filling demand and making a killing doing it. Therefore, tougher accrediting standards should be implemented to increase the MBA's value.

    As far a being "too theoretical," I disagree. The program at my school focuses on "applied academics." In my first year alone, we've worked on projects for and under the direction of at least 20 fortune 500 companies directly and another 30 indirectly. With a full-time class size of 43 students, this is impressive.

    One last point, you are focusing too much on "management." Many b-schools today realize that new MBAs will rarely walk out of school into a general management position. While it's important to know a broad range of business skills, many schools are offering specializations in Supply Chain, Global Innovation, Services, Operations, Marketing, etc. These schools have learned the value of MBAs that want to focus in one field, increasing chances of success once new MBAs are out in the real world.

  •  
    113

    gailcav

    06/24/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Five Hard Truths About the MBA

    While these things may be true, I think you have to look at it on an individual basis. I think an MBA is valuable with work experience. My writing and research skills increased immensely while I was taking courses. I feel the experience has been invaluable for me.

  •  
    114

    indizyne

    06/27/08 | Report as spam

    RE: 5 Hard Truths about the MBA

    Reading through some of the comments, it appears that there is healthy debate on the issue. Just like any sector, supply and demand determines value.

    That being said though, MBA does provide a basis of knowledge but management especially in the work place goes beyond just understanding the intricacies of business. Management is more about managing people and resources. If you can manage resources without the people, it plaes the value of the knowledge that person has. As they say, no on cares to know except they know you care."

    A friend told me once that they got this person that went to an ivy league school and was made a manager at her bank but in rretrospect felt those without the elite training faired better. No one seems to address the pride that blinds many MBA graduates which makes others despise them. Knowledge should come with humility.

  •  
    115

    stellatella2

    08/13/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Five Hard Truths About the MBA

    I am a recent MBA-program graduate, at 23 years old. I decided to pursue a 5-year combined BS/MBA in Accounting. Although I did not have any "work experience" in the form of a full-time job with benefits, I served in as many internships as I possibly could (I did 6 by the time I finished my MBA), which gave me ample opportunity to apply the skills learned in my graduate courses. I have read some comments complaining about young people, such as myself, who seem to feel they are entitled to their MBA and who have no practical experience to back up the degree. I will offer this input: Of course, I had classmates who fell into that category (especially those who were enrolled in the combined 5-year BS/MBA program), but this is a result of their motivation for pursuing the degree. Most of my young, fresh-from-undergraduate classmates were pursuing their MBA to earn a higher starting salary after finshing their degrees. I, on the other hand, was looking to extend my knowledge from the skill-specific accounting undergraduate degree to a broad-based understanding of the various aspects of business.

    As far as choosing a business school, I feel that accredidation is paramount. Although a valuable business degree may be earned from a non-accredited B-school, I feel that accredidation gives students some level of assurance that their cirriculum meets high standards. One such accredidation that I know of is AACSB, which is the one my school holds. Accredidation is granted after strenuous examination by a panel, who include professors as well as professionals. One of the most interesting facets of accredidation was the fact that MBA candidates were actually administered a management strategy test in order to gauge our ability to apply the knowledge earned during our enrollment in the school. Other forms of examination included class observations as well as open discussions with students.

  •  
    116

    Ashok Karania

    08/20/08 | Report as spam

    Additional Material

    Hi Pete

    Thanks for your practical comments. I am an
    entrepreneur and a MBA. I would love to read your
    insights and knowledge. Please email me at
    ashokkarania@gmail.com

    Regards
    Ashok

  •  
    117

    bugmenot@...

    09/09/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Five Hard Truths About the MBA

    The article is pretty biased. Just stating the obvious facts which everyone who has though seriously about MBAs or pursuing an MBA already knows. An MBA degree a very useful tool, neither required nor sufficient by itself. It all depends on how much value you extract out of it.

  •  
    118

    KBlack01

    09/09/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Five Hard Truths About the MBA

    Here are my two cents. This article is just calling water wet. As with any educational resource an MBA is something to strive for to enhance and expand knowledge. What someone does with that knowledge is up to them. I have a very technical background and am considered a security expert. I decided to pursue an MBA to enhance my ability to interact with management, to bridge the gap between technical and non-technical.

    With that said I will say that hopefully it is neither my degrees nor my certifications that enabled me to advance to where I am. I sincerely hope that I have advanced based upon my ideas, my ability to articulate and push those ideas, my long term follow through, my integrity, and my passion for new challenges. The classes I went through to earn the degree were a means to an end, a means to a new understanding and a new perspective. How can one put a value on that?!

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    119

    cbajandas

    09/10/08 | Report as spam

    TO PETE MALPASS

    Pete,

    I would greatly appreciate it if you could send me your materials. I am starting my own business and after a semester in a school for my MBA I decided I could learn on my own everything they were taching me because it all came straight from books!Also, I am a full time employee, and it was hard to find a program that worked well for me since the government cut fundings for schools in Florida and the professional programs were the first to be cut.

    I am sick of making someone else rich while working 50 hours a week, so I am now dedicated to learnign all I possibly can from my work experience, and from books so I can start my own business in the NEAR future.

    I would greatly appreciate it if you could send me the materials at: cbajandas@gmail.com

    Thank you!

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    120

    geverest70@...

    09/11/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Five Hard Truths About the MBA

    As a student and working manager, nearly completing an MBA, I have to agree somewhat, but also to disagree. I have seen students come straight out of undergraduate studies into an MBA and expect to walk into senior management positions straight away. I have even seen graduates with some years work experience, believe the MBA will propell them to senior management. I beleive the MBA should only be available to people who have experienced several years in management roles so the lessons learned can be applied to real world situtions.

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    121

    middleaged

    10/17/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Five Hard Truths About the MBA

    Wow! Loved this one.

    You can tell it's about MBAs by the length of the responses (I've got one myself - Please discuss in 3000 words or less).

    James G March states that 'you need both Academic and experiential knowledge', which I tend to agree with. My Open University MBA (much cheaper than $100,000) covered a mix of academic discipline and work based assignments, ensuring that everything had a practical basis.

    If you are expecting an MBA to transform you from a loser in to a winner, don't waste your money. They do however give you an edge over those that don't have one (MBA average Salary ?83k/annum - c $140k/annum).

    The MBA helps you to think along lines that previously you may not even have considered, and some MBAs include some far out subjects (Creativity, Innovation and Change for example - surprisingly practical). The best courses are constantly trying to adapt to the changing work place to remain relevant.

    If you are still in doubt, try to get hold of the recommended reading lists and do a little browsing to finally make up your mind.

    PS. At many of the more expensive courses, they help you with the 'who you know' as well as the 'what you know'. Anyone who can afford these things must be pretty high flyers already so are likely to be good contacts to know.

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    122

    MikeDennehy

    10/19/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Five Hard Truths About the MBA

    Three lawyers and three MBAs were catching the train from Boston to New York, and met at the ticket booth. The MBAs bought a ticket each, but the lawyers only bought one ticket between them. How does that work? asked the MBAs. Just watch, said the lawyers, and they all boarded the train.

    As they saw the guard making his way up the carriage towrd them, the three lawyers all went into the corridor and into one of the toilets. The guard duly knocked on the door and said - Ticket please! and one of the lawyers opened the door a little and handed the guard the ticket.

    The MBAs were very impressed, and when they were returning to Boston they only bought one ticket between them. The lawyers however, didn't buy any tickets. How does that work? asked the MBAs again. Just watch, said the lawyers, and they all boarded the train.

    When the guard was making his way up the carriage again, checking tickets, the three lawyers went into the toilet again and locked the door. The three MBAs went and locked themselves in another toliet across the carriage, and waited for the guard. Then one of the lawyers opened their door, crossed the carriage, knocked on the MBAs door, and said - Ticket please!

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    123

    john.shepherd

    10/21/08 | Report as spam

    RE: Five Hard Truths About the MBA

    An MBA at the end of the day is what you take out of it. It's not a panacea for all ills! It's not a magic pill. It just gives you a pretty good generic understanding of how businesses operate - you need to take from it your own learning. It does not 'make' you... You make what you can of it. Of course some individuals who do an MBA may be unscrupulous, but they probably would have been with or without the degree. Let's not blow this out of proportion - it is only a qualification after all. PS: Really enjoyed the lawyer/MBA joke! Now what if you were a lawyer doing an MBA?!?

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    124

    vpatel8373pv

    06/23/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Five Hard Truths About the MBA

    you don't need an mba to succeed in life/business.all you need
    is determination and know how to speak English in an foreign
    country. and what you really is need is substantial capital
    around 200-300k. People skills, determination and hardworking
    will take you far than an mba. Also, you have to be really good
    at politics. Acting like an politician is an must in managing an
    business.

  •  
    125

    stepmaster

    08/14/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Five Hard Truths About the MBA

    Wow, there's some serious hate out here for MBA's and B-schools. As an MBA myself, I can say it's very good to go into the program with some work experience. I have a BS in Comp. Sci, so B-school was a completely different animal, not to mention the half-dozen foundation courses I had to take before the core curriculum. I learned a lot, put quite a bit into practice at places I've worked and now as I get my own company going. The company I work for paid for mine, but my school is considered prestigious, ~$450 per credit hour back in 2004. I'm sure it's more now. I think it was worth every penny they paid, makes me stand out over similar IT professionals.

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