When Outsourcing is Just Plain Stupid

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  VT300007/10/08 Reported as spam
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  RACIST!

  You are just being racist and xenophobic. I know you have the right to express your self, but at the end of the day you just cant gulp down the fact that someone from India is doing the job cheap. So what's wrong in it... At least the Indian does not bombard other countries in the name of democracy.

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  patti schuldenfrei07/10/08 Report as spam
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  Reality check

  Put a little more politely: no, we should not assume an Indian can't be a good copy editor. I once worked in a proofreading department with an Indian ex-pat, and he was just as adept with the language as the rest of us. HOWEVER, it's not "racist" -- just real -- to acknowledge that the current trend of outsourcing EVERYTHING to India has created a continuous headache for the average American looking for some simple customer service. Generally, I've found the Indian call-center folk to be very polite, well-trained, and lovely, but the realities of trying to understand someone with a foreign accent whose voice has been beamed into space and back again in order to reach my poor straining ear makes the whole thing a nightmare (which is kind of funny, since the conversation is usually taking place at a time when THEY should be asleep.) I can't wait for businesses to figure out that this whole trend is a disaster. As a former newspaper copy editor, I'm reminded of the day we first heard about the advent of SpellCheck (yes, Virginia, there was an advent). We were worried about the future of our trade until people started publishing things full of correctly spelled nonsensical words. Not to mention the name problem. Hopefully, today's newspapers will actually care about publishing lingual nonsense -- although I'd say that concern went out the window long before copy editing went overseas.

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  David 4207/10/08 Report as spam
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  Outstanding!

  thank you for such a great response. all 3 recent posts were very well written and argued.

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  CC Holland07/11/08 Report as spam
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  Great points

  Thanks for weighing in! Appreciate the perspective from another editorial type.

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  noahli07/10/08 Report as spam
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  Chill out

  I don't think you read the post; you just reacted. Anyway, the poster's points
  are all valid, but he/she omitted the most important one. Copyeditors are not
  just tasked with catching spelling errors, fact-checking and the many other
  practical things he/she mentioned. Most important, they must have a deep
  understanding of the nuances of the language, so that subtle grammatical
  errors, semantic imprecision and logical glitches don't undermine a story's
  purpose of conveying the news accurately. The poster mentions libel, and
  libel cases have turned on the ignorant or sloppy use of a single word. If a
  non-native English speaker has developed enough sophistication with the
  language to pass this crucial test, then it doesn't matter where that editor
  lives. I'm skeptical, though. On the other hand, I've dealt with so many
  American copy-editors who had tin ears toward their own language, that
  maybe it doesn't matter.

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  CC Holland07/11/08 Report as spam
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  Tin ears

  You're right -- I did omit the issue of language sophistication, and nuance is a huge part of language that doesn't always translate well. (Ever try telling a joke in another language?) Thanks for pointing that out.

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  TrevorLongino07/10/08 Report as spam
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  On the contrary...

  When you pay 75 cents an hour for someone to do work for you, you will usually find that what they have produced for you is worth exactly that.
  
  The author's point was not that Indians are incompetent or unable to do work, his point was that they 1) do not have the training of a good copy editor, and 2) do not have the acculturation that a successful American copy editor needs. If you read a newspaper article that talks about chazzes getting tubby because they've been eating too many bangers and mash, you're going to wonder what the heck, precisely, they're talking about.
  
  In a previous job, I managed a team of 20 Indians writing content for a number of blogs on a social media site; they were being paid about a half-a-cent a word, and they weren't worth even that. It is not because Indians are terrible workers who shouldn't be paid for their time, it is because people who are worth $33,000/year in America are worth more than $8,000 a year in India. There's a difference in exchange rates, yes, but when you're hiring the equivalent of a high-school graduate for your copy-editing--regardless of the country you're hiring them from--you're going to see a noticeable lack of skill when compared to someone who has earned a masters (or at least a bachelor's) degree in English.
  
  It is easy to play the racist card as it is to play the sexist, or anti-handicapped, or whatever targeted minority feels alienated by those in power; doing so improperly makes the person who is using it sound shrill and a demagogue. It also, like the tale of the boy who cried wolf, trains the culture at large to ignore genuine claims of racism, sexism, or other discrimination because they have heard the word bandied about when it should not have been.
  
  "All our words, from loose using, have lost their edge," said Hemingway. Perhaps a little more consideration about inflammatory language would be in order the next time you comment on someone else's writings. Rational discussion will always engender more open-minded reception on the part of the audience.

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  ShanIng07/10/08 Report as spam
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  Brilliant

  An astute and well-written response!

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  CC Holland07/11/08 Report as spam
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  Thank you for the thoughtful response

  Well reasoned, and especially well-written. Thank you for taking the time to comment!

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  CC Holland07/10/08 Report as spam
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  Sorry, not racist - just realistic

  Sorry you thought my post was racist. Out of curiosity, did you read the whole thing or did you come to a screeching halt when I mentioned India?
  
  It's not racist, just realistic, to question whether someone can get a job done based on location, education, and cultural orientation. That's especially true with newspaper copy editing, which -- as I noted in my post -- requires more than a good grasp of grammar. A good newspaper copy editor is thoroughly steeped in his or her community and knows the difference between, for instance, BART and Bart.
  
  I'm fluent in French. Does that mean I should be copy-editing Le Monde? Heck, no. I haven't lived in Paris this century and would have no idea about the current political or cultural climate, or what's trendy, or the latest slang. Could I fix misspellings? Mais oui. Can I catch the subtleties of language that would make a turn of phrase appropriate -- or not? Peut-etre. Maybe.
  
  For a more direct example, would I be a good pick for a telecommuting copy editing job in San Diego? Again, in my opinion, no. Love the city, speak English fluently, and am a good copy editor...but I don't know the local scene.
  
  I have no problem with someone doing a job cheaper as long as they do it well, whether they're in Mumbai, Montana, or Montpelier. I can, as you say, gulp that fact. It's just good business. But you have to have the qualifications the job requires. In this case, any outsourced copy editor, regardless of race or ethnicity or remote location, just doesn't.

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  VT300007/11/08 Report as spam
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  Satyameva Jayate

  Out of curiosity, did you read the whole thing or did you come to a screeching halt when I mentioned India?
  
  I did read the whole thing. As for coming to a screeching halt, it seems that you deliberately chose to pick on Indians since everyone in USA is blaming outsourcing and you knew that even if someone expresses a comment against your post, the others who comment can quickly flame that person.
  
  I have no problem with someone doing a job cheaper as long as they do it well, whether they're in Mumbai, Montana, or Montpelier. I can, as you say, gulp that fact. It's just good business. But you have to have the qualifications the job requires. In this case, any outsourced copy editor, regardless of race or ethnicity or remote location, just doesn't.
  
  Well, as you said, race or ethnicity does not matter. TRUE. Qualifications do matter.TRUE. But who are you to decide that Indians are not qualified or not.
  
  You (and even the other people who have replied) are replying so passionately because inside somewhere you feel guilty of being racist. It is very easy for you to blame people from other countries but very hard to gulp down the truth.
  
  >>>
  
  Tutti gli uomini sono per natura egualmente liberi e indipendenti. Quest'eguaglianza ? necessaria per costituire un governo libero. Bisogna che ognuno sia uguale all'altro nel diritto naturale.

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  Enrico Pallazzo07/11/08 Report as spam
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  Truth alone triumphs...

  You're way off-base.
  
  I have a problem with people dropping the "racist" card on others when it's not warranted. In this case, CC doesn't deserve it. It's a sensitive issue and it's not much of a stretch to imagine that someone could've taken offense. But it does seem like you may be taking this post as some catch-all snapshot indicative of her attitudes towards Indians. You asked (at least, I think it was supposed to be a question), "who are you to decide that Indians are not qualified or not." In that same vein, who are you to take one article or blog post and immediately assign the "racist" label to a person without knowing them or their attitudes, and without there being anything in the article that was blatantly inflammatory?
  
  I re-read the article in search of possible racist comments. I didn't find any. The only things you could be referring to are the issues CC mentioned about language, culture and location. Those were not racist! They are truths relative to the topic! Therefore, they must alone triumph, right? She also made a very solid point about going to work as a copy-editor in San Diego in a follow-up comment. Same time zone, same country, same language. But she's not from there.
  
  Being labeled a racist unfairly is very hard to recover from, so since "truth alone triumphs," maybe you should know the truth before you call someone racist, don't you think? You don't KNOW that the people that posted are mad about outsourcing... you're just guessing. Well, is it possible you're a little sensitive to the subject because other Americans with whom you've discussed this topic have felt that way? And is it possible that maybe you've assigned their racist attitudes to all Americans who oppose outsourcing for reasons other than race?
  
  Ultimately, I wonder whether or not you'd be offended by the article if she replaced all references to India with (insert country without English as the primary language here).
  
  This all reminds me of a famous saying... "opinions are like @$$holes... everybody's got one." If you can accept that and move on, you'll be much happier at the end of the day.
  
  And by the way, CC never said "Indians shouldn't be free, independent or equal." So Mazzei's quote is really out of place.

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  CC Holland07/11/08 Report as spam
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  Nice Italian, but India is the point

  Did you follow the link in my story? Yes, I did deliberately mention India. And the reason why I mentioned India was because the outsourcing was actually going to (wait for it)...India.
  
  Had the copy-editing work been outsourced to Germany, Italy, Hungary, or anywhere else in the world, the thrust of my argument would be the same: a remote copy-editing workforce, by dint of lack of language sophistication (e.g., nuance) and cultural and community connection, would not be appropriate.
  
  I'm not saying a native of India couldn't copy-edit an American newspaper and do it resoundingly well. But I would expect that person to actually be in the newsroom and be living in the community. Are Indians qualified to copy-edit an American newspaper from India? In my opinion, and based on those criteria listed above, no. And I'd argue the same for the German, the Italian, the Hungarian -- and even if the outsourcing were going, say, to a remote workforce in a cheaper part of the U.S.
  
  I'm sorry if you think that's racist, and I'm surprised that you are now accusing all those disagreeing with you of racism as well. I believe their eloquence is not a sign of suppressed racism; rather, it's an indication that they don't want to allow a knee-jerk response to a reasonable argument go by.
  
  And quite frankly, I think it's rather offensive for someone to jump on the "racist" tag anytime someone has a negative comment that in any way mentions his race or when someone contradicts his opinion. I could just as easily accuse you of being sexist because you are taking issue with my comments.
  
  And by the way, I agree: truth alone triumphs. Even if it's one that's not palatable to you.

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  Karen J.07/16/08 Report as spam
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  Sorry, not racist - just realistic

  CC - You're absolutely right! And it would be equally inappropriate to have the outsourced copy-editor of the Mumbai Times located in New York or Paris!
  
  Charges of racism are totally irrelevant to this discussion, and the shrilly aggressive tone of the OP virtually guaranteed that, *even* if it were germane, any valid points would be lost in the shouting.
  
  Keep up the great, thought-provoking work, CC!
  
  Karen J.

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  CC Holland07/17/08 Report as spam
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  Thanks for the defense!

  And for the compliment as well. I appreciate your taking the time to post!

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  ksmith4907/10/08 Report as spam
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  RE: When Outsourcing is Just Plain Stupid

  Having been a magazine editor/publisher, I totally and absolutely agree 100% with CC Holland.

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  CC Holland07/11/08 Report as spam
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  Thank you!

  Always nice to hear that someone agrees with me.

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  n-solis07/10/08 Report as spam
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  When Outsourcing Is Just Plain Stupid

  Someone who is fluent in -- or even native to -- a language isn't necessarily a good copy editor. Copy editing is a precise and woefully undervalued art; it requires a finely tuned ear for the language and a clear understanding of the audience.
  
  Also, the regional nuances of language can't be underestimated. For an example, read the Aussie Rules or Sterling Performance blogs here on BNET. The word choice, the business jargon, etc. vary -- sometimes dramatically -- from the US to Australia to the UK. To paraphrase George Bernard Shaw, we are countries divided by a common language.
  
  Gene Weingarten, at the Washington Post, has a humorous take on the trend of cutting copy editors. If you think anyone can be a copy editor, try to catch all 60 errors in his piece (there's a key at the end).
  
  http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/19/AR2008061902920.html
  
  Nicole Solis
  Managing Editor, BNET

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  gaelgrad07/10/08 Report as spam
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  Link corrupted

  Any chance you can repost? - I wanted to see how many errors I could catch.

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  Enrico Pallazzo07/11/08 Report as spam
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  Broken link

  GG,
  
  If you look at the link, you'll see the ".html" is separated from the rest of the hypertext. Click the link again, then add the rest for the correct link. I did the same thing (trying to count the errors).

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  CC Holland07/11/08 Report as spam
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  Great link!

  And thanks for the beautifully written response.

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  geaubeau07/10/08 Report as spam
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  RE: When Outsourcing is Just Plain Stupid

  Simple answer: It's the commoditizatioin of the art of writing.
  
  Anyone who thinks this is a good investment when it comes to their business needs to think about how well offshore CRM has worked. Same water, different cups.
  
  reminds me of Theodore M Bernstein's (apparently) rarely-heeded warning.
  
  "If writing is a precise form of communication, it must be treated like a precision instrument."

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  CC Holland07/11/08 Report as spam
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  You're right

  You said it: writing isn't an art any longer. It's something to be done cheaper, faster, and easier. Sigh.

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  tomnettom07/10/08 Report as spam
  24

  BNET outsourcing?

  I read a large amount of information on BNET. I do not think that I can read 2 or 3 without finding errors. Who does your copy editing? It just happened again. Which reminded me of this post and that I should comment. So, how about it - who does BNET's copy editing? Outsourced to India?

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  CC Holland07/11/08 Report as spam
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  Yep, we make mistakes too

  It's true, no copy editor is perfect (well, few of them, anyway). And errors do slip through. But imagine how many more would appear if none of the copy editors worked for BNet directly and didn't have a grounding in business as well as in writing and editing?
  
  That said, typos stink and we hate them. Any time you see one, please feel free to let us know!

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  Girsang07/10/08 Report as spam
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  Copy Editing? DoThey Still Do That?

  Forgive my ignorance, but I thought copy editing disappeared years ago. In the last decade the quality of writing (content, grammar, & spelling) has decreased so dramatically that I assumed that editing had disappeared. I thought that writers submitted to editors who gave the words a quick glance and then published. I can find errors in almost every article I read, so I'm shocked to think someone actually proofread it.
  
  Newspapers, magazines, books, etc., they're all littered with errors.
  
  Perhaps I just notice these things because I have the skills for copy-editing, but given the description, I'm glad it's not my line of work.

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  CC Holland07/11/08 Report as spam
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  Yep, I hear you

  I've noticed the decline as well. It really gets my goat when outlets like Newsweek let errors slip by. The problem with copy editing is this: if you do it well, no one notices. If no one notices you, they think you're not important. If they think you're not important, you're first on the chopping block when it's time to cut costs. And then voila! Your publication is full of mistakes because too few copy editors are doing too much work -- or leaving the profession in disgust.