Is O'Rourke O'Wrong?

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  LWeller208/20/08 Report as spam
  1

  RE: Is O'Rourke O'Wrong?

  Julie O???Malley wrote, "If we behave in an ethical way, it???s because we are unwilling to suffer the negative consequences of acting unethically."
  
  What was missing here is that some people behave ethically because their focus is not to harm others.
  
  It's called character.

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  sbrennaman35408/20/08 Report as spam
  2

  RE: Is O'Rourke O'Wrong?

  I agree with the assessment by LWeller2 that people beghave ethically because thay have a focus on do no harm to others. And I agree that it is good character (not all character is good)that these acts reflect. But, how do we develp good character (or bad) and a base of ethicss? Nature vs nuture? Faith In God (yes I said God) or a set of learned beliefs that are focused on the greater good of others over the the needs and desires of the individual. This discussion can go on and on.

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  KPMURPHY08/20/08 Report as spam
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  RE: Is O'Rourke O'Wrong?

  It seems to me, by reading the responses posted on this follow-up, that many people got so caught up in the first sentance that they didn't acknowledge the balance given by the second.
  
  I believe that we all act (without exception) according to our greatest desires at any given point in time (doing what we please)... and whether we acknowledge it or not, we will be dealing with the consequences of all of our choices, whether good or bad. Even if we try and escape the consequences, I believe we will all face them.
  
  As a Christian, I believe there is perfect justice being executed by a perfect God... whether in this life, or after we depart this life and face judgment.
  
  There is no escaping the consequences of our actions... and this quote adds that reminder for, and almost mocks, all those who want to live their lives by only the first sentance.

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  sbrennaman35408/20/08 Report as spam
  4

  RE: Is O'Rourke O'Wrong?

  As a Christian I strive to walk the walk but it is always easier to walk for an individual to walk their own path and if they do so it is a willful decision, free will given to him/her by God. Hence an individual needs to be grounded in a set of value that stand the test of time. We all will be held accountable for our actions after we die. For those who do not beleive this will be sorely disappointed and dismayed. Their lives here are defined by what they will do if they are not held accountable (here on Earth) for their actions.

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  noahli08/20/08 Report as spam
  5

  P.J. O'Rourke's always been a fraud.

  Remember, he wrote the "National Lampoon" piece "My
  Vagina," in which a young man wakes up one day in
  possession of a vagina instead of a penis and by the end
  of the day has been molested by his friends. Not
  surprising, then, that O'Rourke's current formulation is
  completely without ethics. Animals do as they please and
  take the consequences. Humans, theoretically, have
  evolved.

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  Viejita08/20/08 Report as spam
  6

  RE: Is O'Rourke O'Wrong?

  The real problem is the second half, "taking the consequences." It used to be that the luxury of staying in a low-level job was that there were several layers of people above you to help fix your mistakes and to to manage the results. So there was a trade-off: less money, less responsibility; more money, more responsibility. In the last few years that equation has been turned on its head. If managers and executives can escape responsibility by claiming they didn't know what was going on in the ranks, then for what are they being paid so much?
  And it isn't just in the business world, I think it might be cultural. (Can anybody say "Abu Ghraib?")

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  Julie O'Malley08/20/08 Report as spam
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  RE: Is O'Rourke O'Wrong?

  @LWeller2
  
  I think you misunderstood my point. I agree with you that "character" is how we define our actions. I try to act ethically, morally, and with kindness and compassion at all times. I believe it's the right thing to do. I want to behave with character.
  
  I don't behave within my own value system, I am punished with the consequences of feeling guilt, shame, and self-disgust. If I had no character, I would not have those feelings, and I would simply do whatever I want.
  
  So I behave a certain way because I don't want to face the negative consequences.
  
  And just for the record, it's been 25 years since I was literally a "psychology student" but I am a lifelong student of human behavior and psychology.

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  sbrennaman35408/20/08 Report as spam
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  RE: Is O'Rourke O'Wrong?

  Julie O'Malley brings up a good point when she referred to own value system. Valid point because we do live in a world whereby laws (and ethics) accepted by all are codified into law and generally accepted behavior. The vast majorities of us live by these standards and behave accordingly. A percentage of are criminals or fringe players who do wrong and know it (acknowledgement after arrest) and a small percentage (very small) are pathological (sociopaths or psychopaths). So since most of us are in the former, we make choices.

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  Lux13131308/20/08 Report as spam
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  RE: Is O'Rourke O'Wrong?

  Since the concept of "right" and "wrong" is completely subjective and highly circumstantial in the first place, I think everyone has validated O'Rourke's point. There are no guarantees or "rights" in anything, let alone the complex world of business. The only thing that's for certain is your right to do anything, be it stupid, unethical, or altruistic, and suffer whatever consequences are tied to your actions, be they anxiety, incarceration, or eternal damnation. In this respect, I agree with Julie O'Malley, i.e., O'Rourke's comment isn't about should or shouldn't, rather it's just a sage observation of reality.

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  mjs01008/21/08 Report as spam
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  RE: Is O'Rourke O'Wrong?

  Sometimes there's good reason to damn the torpedoes, but PJ's quote is Libertarian ideology at its worst - amoral and selfish. It may be "the way it is" but we are all the co-creators of our reality and as long as we accept what is, then nothing changes, except for the worse.

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  Julie O'Malley08/21/08 Report as spam
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  RE: Is O'Rourke O'Wrong?

  Agh! He's not saying, "Do whatever you want and it's fine as long as you don't get caught."
  
  He's saying:
  Fact #1: You CAN do whatever you want.
  Fact #2: Most of us WON'T do bad things because our consciences, or our ethics, or our values, or our morals, or our religion, or our beliefs, or our desire to lead a life of peace and harmony, or the legal system, or the neighbor's vicious watchdog make the consequences unacceptable.
  
  We don't consciously think "I'm not going to do that because I don't want to face consequences," but that's what is underlying it all.
  
  Anyway, I'll shut up now.