Question-and-Answer Session
Operator
Thank you. [Operator Instructions]. We'll take our first question today from P.J. Juvekar from Citi.
P. J. Juvekar - Citigroup
Good morning.
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
Good morning P.J.
Nelson Squires - Director, Investor Relations
Hi P.J.
P. J. Juvekar - Citigroup
You know you have a goal of raising operating margins by 100 basis points for the next three years.
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
Yes.
P. J. Juvekar - Citigroup
Can you achieve that with the current portfolio or do you need to exit chemicals and/or equipment business for that?
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
Well certainly P.J. a factor in here is for us and the sell out polymers businesses as we talked about. The polyurethane intermediates business we're going to keep. It doesn't impact the... our goals for margin. As far as for other things that we have the margin improvement plans which we pretty much laid out for people to deliver on net margin improvement over the next three years.
P. J. Juvekar - Citigroup
And then by selling HPPC, Paul, are you saying that the Ashland acquisition did not work out as well as you thought?
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
No, I am not, and we really, we had three products which we got, HPPC was one of them, but we also bought a strippers business in a... and we also bought a CMP cleans business. Those other two businesses were... and they were the reason for why we bought this business. We didn't ascribe a whole lot of value to the high period of processed chemicals, it was a decent portion of their sales, but if you just go back and look at the growth in which we have had and what we have been able to do in those businesses, the Ashland acquisition is still a good acquisition for our electronics business both now and in the future.
P. J. Juvekar - Citigroup
And just lastly Paul, are you disappointed with the pace of margin recovery in healthcare? Thank you.
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
Certainly, we don't like the pace and we fell short of our goal this year which we already admit to. We've got a goal for next year and we are... we've taken the steps which we think are right to make it happen.
Operator
And we will take our next question from Bob Koort from Goldman Sachs.
Robert Koort - Goldman Sachs
Thanks, good morning
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
Good morning Bob.
Robert Koort - Goldman Sachs
A couple of questions. First, Paul the merchant trends I guess, the monthly tranche provide show a little more strength through August. Did we see a deceleration in September and is there anything that gives you cause for concern.
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
As far as the trends in September, our September... it was not a strong on a year-on-year basis. We had a very good September last year though too, so lots of those gets in to taking and trying to compare to a particular month Bob, with it. Don't think you can... you got to be careful about that. We are seeing restrictions in both here in Europe and also in Asia on the helium thing. But argon and helium are very tight in North America and in Europe and that has restricted sales. For right now in sales growth year-on-year. Now the other thing which you've seen, you saw very strong price results there and so that I think has made up for that from a profit standpoint.
Robert Koort - Goldman Sachs
Got you and on the... Paul, you're seeing intermediates. Obviously you resolved your contract issue, which I would assume provides a nice near term financial incentive. But I suppose you'll be operating that unit at... at a lower utilization rate. So, one is that accurate in other couple of trends that you can shut one down and secondly how wide was the gap between the bid in offers there that you might be able to try and resuscitate a sale of that asset some time down the line?
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
Well first in... and regarding the operating rates; we have gone through and made the changes in the plant to size the plant right to the size of the business which we have and so I think we're in good shape there. We also have added a few... we have also added an additional customer during this timeframe in this business. But this is the long-term contract type business and it has minimum surrounded and so as you go out and offer it wasn't as attractive to, let's say, private equity type of deals. It's not a huge business. It doesn't have any growth prospects really around it. But it does provide us a very steady ensure cash flow with that and so we made our decision to keep it because it was a good contributor to the Company.
Robert Koort - Goldman Sachs
And I guess the logic was strategic buyer. One of your other main customers. Taking a look at that there was never discussed or just wasn't any interest there?
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
I am not going to talk about the... and the things which you, which we talk with our customers about. But certainly we try to explore as many avenues to look at the right place for this asset. And it turns out the right place I think is for us. We have the knowledge of how to run this plan, how to serve this market well. We are not going to invest back in this business. We are not going to build capacity in other places of the world. But I think we have a good asset here which makes good sense for us to run from a cash standpoint for us.
Robert Koort - Goldman Sachs
Okay, thanks.
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
Thanks, Bob.
Operator
And next we'll hear from Laurence Alexander from Jefferies.
Laurence Alexander - Jefferies & Company
Good morning.
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
Good morning Laurence.
Laurence Alexander - Jefferies & Company
First of all, just to be clear on the outlook for 2008; is there a pension headwind in 2008 as well as the higher taxes?
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
Yes there is. Yes there is... I commented. You go to our footnotes. We said that the pension... the pension charge is about 30 to 35 in total. The way the accounting works for this, Laurence, is you can only record it at the time that you pay it. So we actually paid in $10 million of that this year and we will pay 20 to 25 next year. And that will be recorded at the time we pay it.
Laurence Alexander - Jefferies & Company
And then --
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
That's included in the guidance.
Laurence Alexander - Jefferies & Company
And then the maintenance spending for that hit tonnage this quarter that was about $5 million to $6 million?
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
Yes you are right.
Laurence Alexander - Jefferies & Company
And finally, can you discuss the... as you're looking at the Electronics from SKU reduction a $100 million is that including the income HPPC divestiture or is that on top?
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
No. No it does not include the HPPC divestiture. The HPPC divestiture is treated as discontinued ops, so it is out of all of our sales. The SKU and these are different products which... these are products which we are buying and re-selling. In the market principally, until we've been taking actions with that and we notify our customers last year and we gave them like a 12 month notice. So they will be coming off that in this current year.
Laurence Alexander - Jefferies & Company
And finally, what's your economist's confidence interval on the manufacturing assumptions for next year?
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
On a confidence interval?
Laurence Alexander - Jefferies & Company
Yes.
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
At last you know as far the way the economy is working out now I think we feel good about that.
Laurence Alexander - Jefferies & Company
Thank you.
Operator
And next we'll go to Jeffrey Zekauskas from JP Morgan.
Jeffrey Zekauskas - J.P. Morgan
Hi. Good morning.
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
Good morning Jeff.
Jeffrey Zekauskas - J.P. Morgan
I've got a couple of questions about the chemical business.
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
Sure.
Jeffrey Zekauskas - J.P. Morgan
How did you double profits in the quarter year-over-year. I know your sales were up $30 million, but it just seems such a marked improvement. Are you sure you want to sell the business?
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
Yes we are. And part of the reason here is that there is impacts on pricing, there is impacts on customer mix here of who takes in this business. So that... and that does have an impact on us.
Jeffrey Zekauskas - J.P. Morgan
So is the polymers business about 60% of the Chemicals segment. Is that the right order of magnitude?
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
The polymers business is roughly; probably may be that could to a little bit less. Probably it could be a little bit more Jeff. And probably little bit more.
Jeffrey Zekauskas - J.P. Morgan
Okay. And you accept that price?
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
On revenue percent,
Jeffrey Zekauskas - J.P. Morgan
On a revenue percent and is its margin above the chemical average or below the chemical average ?
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
I am not going to break out the margins of the individual businesses there.
Jeffrey Zekauskas - J.P. Morgan
Okay. And then lastly, on your balance sheet in your inventories and contracts and progress of 776 million, how much is inventories and how much is contracts in progress whatever that is?
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
Inventories for us runs about 525 to 550 in that and contracts and progress are there is the remaining portion.
Jeffrey Zekauskas - J.P. Morgan
What is that ?
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
It pertains to on the equipment which we sell. So if I am selling you their equipment in... I sell it in my electronics business. I sell it in the equipment business there and what I do is as I build up the sale and if don't if I am not on percent completed or not I ever put the true sales yet and then its less the progress billings for that. So there are some things which go on a completely contract basis; some small sales there and so it goes in to inventory, which is what that is. If I get a progress billing that goes against it.
Jeffrey Zekauskas - J.P. Morgan
Okay, thank you very much.
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
Sure.
Operator
And Michael Judd from Greenwich Consultants has our next question.
Michael Judd - Greenwich Consultants
Hi guys, thanks for taking my question, I have a question about currency. For the first quarter any way do you have any thoughts on how that impacts the business... the various businesses here and you can talk about volumes also if you like?
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
Yes. As far as currency is concerned I think further on if we look at Europe its already going to impact the European results favorably. What it does though from an economic standpoint, from a volume standpoint its going to depress the European business overtime because the higher cost... the higher value of the euro and pound, they are going to make the exports out of that area, harder an imports more attractive. Conversely helps us on U.S businesses as we have seen trade... the trade balance get better for the U.S.
Michael Judd - Greenwich Consultants
Thanks for the help.
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
Sure.
Operator
And David Begleiter with Deutsche Bank has our next question.
David Begleiter - Deutsche Bank
Thank you good morning.
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
How do you do?
David Begleiter - Deutsche Bank
Paul, will the sale of polymers be dilutive to '08 guidance?
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
Yes.
David Begleiter - Deutsche Bank
By how much do you think?
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
Depending upon the timing of when that occurs and will have that, but it could be... I have gone through the share buyback etcetera and done a lot of that in advance, which is part of the offset to that dilution with things. But at the time at which we do this deal and we will give you the information at that point in time. I am not going to comment on the profitability rate at this point in time that polymers individually, David.
David Begleiter - Deutsche Bank
Okay understood. On equipment, are you going to lose money in equipment in 2008?
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
No, I am not going to lose money equipment in 2008. It take $0.15 to $0.20 on equipment and energy, you can see what the impact is... that is, it does not take that segment to a loss.
David Begleiter - Deutsche Bank
Any if that $0.18 is here. Did you not?
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
The segment profits were around $100 million this year.
David Begleiter - Deutsche Bank
Okay, I will follow up later. And just one more thing on the six new plants in tonnage, what's the revenue and operating income impact in 2008 and 2009.
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
The six new plants in tonnage revenue... I mean which we would expect is our revenue growth for tonnage, this kind of be in line with the revenue growth for the Company. So somewhere in the 8% to 10% range for that time period.
David Begleiter - Deutsche Bank
For all from those...
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
You got to look at the loading impact too, we got loading impact and then the new plants. New plants are going to responsible for everything in there, we will have some loading impacts to that.
David Begleiter - Deutsche Bank
Is the tonnage plants, the largest of those six?
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
The other thing Dave on the tonnage thing and the Pemex plant as an example is not going to be accounted through per sales, it's going to an equity affiliate because we are doing a partnership with our partners in Mexico. And there is another facility which is also an equity affiliate too.
David Begleiter - Deutsche Bank
Okay, thank you very much.
Operator
And Mike Harrison with First Analysis has our next question.
Michael Harrison - First Analysis
Hi good morning.
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
Hi Mike.
Michael Harrison - First Analysis
In your sales update you noted that tonnage gases were up 20% through July and August and then it came in at 12% for the quarter. I was just wondering if you could explain what was going on in September that you would see such a sharp decline there and then have you seen any continued slowing in tonnage there in so far in November... in October.
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
What we had in tonnage last year is we had a plant come on stream in the last month, which pushed up the comparison period, as I said, you got to be careful about any particular one comparison at that point in time to because there are spot sales which go... which move around and don't occur every month, but that was the big impact which slowed us there.
Michael Harrison - First Analysis
Did the insurance settlement also hit in September?
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
The insurance settlement did not go through sales. The insurance settlement goes in other income.
Michael Harrison - First Analysis
Okay.
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
And so... but it did occur in the fourth quarter and obviously it was a big impact on margins of course, because didn't carry sales with it.
Michael Harrison - First Analysis
Okay. And then you mentioned the... in U.S. healthcare you mentioned that you redefined the business model there, I was wondering if you could elaborate on what you are doing differently going forward there?
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
Yes. And part of what we have done there in the business model is we have looked towards trying to take in focus our sales force on doctors as opposed to hospitals looking for a longer term patient with those things is that... that's an example of one thing. We have given them a new offering to go out and go to and the market within the respiratory end. We've taken our sales force and split it between the infusion and the oxygen portion of that, so we've made a lot of changes there. We're waiting to see the impact of those things.
Michael Harrison - First Analysis
And then, I was just curious in the chemicals business, if you could talk about what you're seeing right now in terms of raw material cost impact. How that might have impacted the business in the quarter and what you're outlook is as you look into '08?
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
Certainly, as far as on the raw material impact for us in chemicals and our polymers business, and we're being helped right now on a raw materials standby because we are VAM-based emulsion as opposed to an acrylic based... acrylic are being forced up by well. So we have... so that is helped us that helped our profits in our margin on a relative basis to an acrylic producer with that thing. On the polyurethane intermediates business that we actually pass through raw material cost there.
Michael Harrison - First Analysis
And just really quickly on the Matheson helium JV. I was wondering if you could give me a sense of the incremental capacity that's going to be coming on stream in '09 relative to your existing helium capacity ?
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
Nelson might handle that.
Nelson Squires - Director, Investor Relations
It will led about 5% to 10% to our global capacity.
Michael Harrison - First Analysis
All right, thank you very much.
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
Okay.
Operator
And Peter Butler of Glen Hill Investments has our next question.
Peter Butler - Glen Hill Investments
Good morning. Wondering what is... what are your criteria for a stock split and a dividend increase?
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
Well I am going to talk to... on the dividend increase first Peter, and regarding that is that we're going maintain our policy on dividends that to be within 30% to 40% of our earnings, and to pay that out, and so we don't see any change there. Regarding a stock split, I think I fail to see the value really in that force right not, it cost us money to do things, if we look at our holders and stuff like that I don't think its hurting our volumes and stuff like that or the liquidity to stock and so I can come up with the case to do it, I have a lot of holders who buy... they want to invest x number dollars in their products and buy up x number of shares.
Peter Butler - Glen Hill Investments
Okay. Another subject in healthcare, are your Lehigh engineers experiencing insoluble problems here and therefore the best case now is may be there were just pretty it up enough so you can sell it ?
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
We do not think the problems are impossible here. We put in place a plan of action, it certainly is taking us a lot little longer than what we thought, but we remained committed towards making this business better.
Peter Butler - Glen Hill Investments
Is selling it high... is that high on your option list of things to--
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
The option right now which we're going at is we are going to make this business better. And we will make judgments as we see the market and the business get better and we will take a look at what our future is in that business at that point in time.
Peter Butler - Glen Hill Investments
Okay, thanks for the help.
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
Yes.
Operator
Mark Gulley with Soleil Securities. has our next question.
Mark Gulley - Soleil - Gulley & Associates
Good morning guys, I got three questions for you. First of all CapEx will be down a lot in fiscal 2008 versus 2007, can you provide some color there and is that one of the reasons that you have already announced that expenditure for this program?
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
As far as CapEx for PP&E it's up Mark. As you can see it was $1 billion roughly this year. We are taking the $1 billion, $2 billion for us. And the other factor we have is the acquisitions and so we had the Poland acquisition and we bought up the remainder of our business in Malaysia. And we continue to explore our opportunities there. As far as looking forward that and we have some of that crank into our plans and crank into the plans... and for the share buyback there. But... and we will see. The acquisitions depends upon the opportunities that you well know.
Mark Gulley - Soleil - Gulley & Associates
Yes, thanks for the clarification. Paul, you have provided some margin assumptions for '08 for couple of businesses but not all. Could you may be fill the inside straight there?
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
Certainly on the businesses which we have is... I'll just go the other ones which I didn't talk about. The equipment and the energy business it really it is not a margin business per se for us as you well know... the L&G and the air separation portion of that business have helped the margins differ by a lot. So we... it doesn't pay for us to really focus on the margins in there.
With regard to tonnage business, in that business is actually a return business. It gets what you have as you have the impact of the energy flowing through there all the time, and so that distorts the margins. I will tell you on a constant energy basis what we're looking for and we're looking to increase the margins there in that business. So, may be half a basis point or so.
Mark Gulley - Soleil - Gulley & Associates
And finally --
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
I misspoke there Mark... 50 basis points or so and not half a point, sorry.
Mark Gulley - Soleil - Gulley & Associates
Okay. Thanks. And talking about the supply limitations in liquid helium, liquid argon both U.S. and Europe, is it possible to say what your volume growth would have been had you had adequate supply?
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
And that's hard. But I think it would have been in line with the growth we saw in manufacturing here, certainly helium, there's a lot of demand out there right now, but it's hard to say, how much I would have actually sold.
Mark Gulley - Soleil - Gulley & Associates
Thanks Paul.
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
Yes.
Operator
And next one here from Don Carson with Merrill Lynch.
Donald Carson - Merrill Lynch
Yes. Nelson, I just want to clarify again on that merchant growth I mean if you... what was your actual LIN/LOX volume growth both in North America and Europe just trying to see whether in fact all this slowness was due to strains in argon and helium or what's going on with the underlying LIN/LOX trends ?
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
In North America and Europe both around 3% both pretty solid year-on-year. So we didn't really see any surprise if you will in growth there.
Donald Carson - Merrill Lynch
Right, but I guess it is slowing somewhat. I know in the past people have shown some concerns over perhaps up to 4% capacity increases next year. Do you think that capacity will be able to be absorbed by the market. I am thinking of North America specifically in sort of 3% demand growth environment ?
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
We still believe that and there are a couple of reasons. I think every one is continuing to show good growth in volumes and one thing we did point out was our signings were very strong in North America this past fiscal year, significantly higher than our targets which were actually higher targets than they were a year ago. So we... a lot of that is going to come on line here in '08 and so I think that will continue to take up some of that capacity.
Donald Carson - Merrill Lynch
Okay, and just a question on costs. You talked about $0.12 of higher costs this quarter year-on-year, how much of that would have been in merchant and things like higher power and diesel fuel costs, what kind of constraint is that?
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
Yes Don, on fuel and on the power what that shows it shows up in the price and the raw material costs for us.
Donald Carson - Merrill Lynch
Okay, and then finally Paul your major ORONA target I didn't hear a new target in terms of return on invested capital and what your goals are there?
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
Yes and for you know and obviously our goals there is... and keep trying to drive that up, Don, as we invest and grow the business here. We... our target for this year for on return on invested capital is probably 13% to 13.5% in that range.
Donald Carson - Merrill Lynch
And what about the several years. You think you can get up to the 15% range?
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
You know, if... yes I think that's possible in the future.
Donald Carson - Merrill Lynch
Okay, thank you.
Operator
And our next question comes from John McNulty from Credit Suisse
John McNulty - Credit Suisse
Yes, good morning thanks for taking my questions. With regard to your comments about the strength of Europe, really like that it come from Central Europe at least over the next year or two. Can you give us an update as to any kind of growth initiatives that you are doing in whole under this point, now you have got your feet on the ground for a couple of quarters here?
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
Well I think... and the big thing is we are expanding a plant there already. We will announce that this quarter, and we will continue... we'll continue to look at that expansion in to that business.
John McNulty - Credit Suisse
Okay, great. And then the maintenance issues that you had in the tonnage area. Was this just something that took longer than expected or is it just inflation in general and should we be expecting any of those costs to drag into the first quarter as well?
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
What it actually is that we have a lot more plans on stream John and when you look on year-to-year basis, there will be a lot more plants and lot plant equipment, the maintenance cost are not at a line, they aren't unusual here, it's just the year-on-year increase which goes along with the volume of the business. So you have seen the volume of the business, on the hydrogen side grow by 35% to 40% over the past couple of years and what this reflects is the cost of going out and maintaining those units.
John McNulty - Credit Suisse
Okay, but it is my understanding that negatively impacted the margins year-over-year, though. Is that correct because the growth should have been there to offset that I would have thought?
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
We had volumes and the way in which we talked about, we said the volumes had a positive impact on margins and then we had the hurricane recovery which is actually negative but then the maintenance cost and so... but overall if I just take the, if I just take the impact of the hurricane recovery which was unusual, I would have seen margins grow on a year-on-year basis there.
John McNulty - Credit Suisse
Okay that's helpful, thanks a lot.
Operator
And next we'll hear from Kevin McCarthy from Banc of American Securities.
Kevin McCarthy - Banc of America Securities
Good morning.
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
Good morning Kevin.
Kevin McCarthy - Banc of America Securities
In Asia, how would you characterize the expected rate of capacity growth in the merchant business over the next one to two years?
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
Well for us in Asia we... you know the growth rush LOX/LIN and the Merchant business has been in 20% range or so. I think the absolute percentage number is going to decline because the base is getting larger and larger. So I would say somewhere in the mid high teens.
Kevin McCarthy - Banc of America Securities
Your liquid bulk volume accelerated to 18% on slide 9, I think it was 9% last quarter. Just trying to gauge whether volume growth is going to outpace supply growth over the next year. So in that region and what the implications for pricing might be because from time to time we hear about competitive intensity popping up in countries like China and India.
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
Yes, and the thing which you ought to understand with that too, Kevin is that, it does depends upon the region in the country there. I mean Asia is very spread out so I can have the impacts in Korea or Taiwan or China, India etcetera for us. And so as we look at the manufacturing growth, we see very strong manufacturing. And we continue to see our investments blow quicker than what our assumptions are in the capital expenditure authorization. We've also been able to see that their pricing has is pretty good in the region. We've been able to recover increase in the power cost etcetera. And so and we're encouraged by the progress in the business. We're encouraged by the growth, we're encouraged by the pricing, we're encouraged by our investments there.
Kevin McCarthy - Banc of America Securities
Okay and then. Shifting gears to tonnage, Paul I think you mentioned you're looking at 20 new tonnage opportunities. How would that number compare with say this time last year? Are you seeing any pattern of acceleration or deceleration there?
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
It is certainly more. And they're getting a lot more real as we go through here and so we're encouraged by that.
Kevin McCarthy - Banc of America Securities
And finally, with regard to equipment and energy, when would you expect the backlog number to reach a bottom?
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
I would hope that the backlog number would start to pick up in mid 2008.
Kevin McCarthy - Banc of America Securities
Thank you Paul.
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
Yes.
Operator
And Mike Sison from KeyBanc has our next question.
Michael Sison - KeyBanc Securities
Hey guys.
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
Hi Mike.
Michael Sison - KeyBanc Securities
Can you give us a little bit of color just may be anecdotally where operating margins of electronics ended up for the year. I know your goal is sort to get to 15% or mid-teens if you will. Sort of what innings do you think we're at in terms of getting there?
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
I think if you look at the margins in the segment overall, we are making good progress there. You know I think we're on a steady path here to get the 15% margins by the 2009-2010 type time period in that segment. So... and we are close.
Michael Sison - KeyBanc Securities
Okay. And then in European merchant margins, that's been an area working on to sort of improve. Are we getting close to where you want to be in that business as well?
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
We have seen some improvement. What this really involves is taking cost out in those areas. So and we're still in the process of doing that as you can see and so as we continue to go out and deliver. But... and so we have seen some progress between our packaged gas and liquid bulk business this year, but we saw a more progress to get there.
Michael Sison - KeyBanc Securities
Great and last question in healthcare as I recall it is basically just loading up that business increasing sales. What type of sales growth do you think you'll need to sort to get to that 10% by year end?
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
You know the... as far as sales growth overall in the business certainly the markets growing 6% to 7% and so we looked at to go 6% or 7% or more in that business grab some share.
Michael Sison - KeyBanc Securities
All right, thank guys.
Paul E. Huck - Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
Yes.
Operator
And that does conclude our question and answer session for today. At this time I Mr. Squires I'll turn it back over to you for any additional or closing remarks.
Nelson Squires - Director, Investor Relations
Thanks Janelle. Please go to our website to access a replay of this call beginning at 2 PM today. Thank you for joining us and have a nice day.
Operator
And once again that does conclude today's conference. We thank you for joining and have a great day.
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