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Hate Insurance Companies? You’re Part of the Problem

Tags: Health Care, Healthcare Reform, Vertical Industries, Benefits, Healthcare, Human Resources, Health Care Reform, Economy, Health Care Industry, Windfall Profits, Public Option, Pharmaceutical Industry, Survivor Bias, Drug Companies, Kent Smetters

At the heart of the political debate on health care reform lies an economic assumption: The health care industry makes too damn much money. Resentment of what President Obama himself calls “windfall profits” underlies much of the support for the public option, for example, which proponents see as the only way to check runaway profiteering by insurers. And while the plan introduced last week by Senate Finance Committee chairman Max Baucus (D-Mont.) dumps the controversial option, Baucus too seems to believe that new taxes and fees might be needed just to keep health care companies honest.

And who can blame him? Health care costs have been rising far faster than inflation for years. You just have to believe these companies are minting money at patients’ expense.

Well, maybe you shouldn’t believe it. Take health care insurers, whom everyone loves to hate. As the middlemen who deliver the bad news about health care costs, they’re easy to blame — like retail gas stations whenever oil prices spike. But insurers are not exactly raking it in. Their average net profit margin is just 3.9 percent. Health care plans, including giants like WellPoint, Aetna, and Humana, earn an estimated margin of 3.3 percent. Dozens of other industries beat that.

One of them is pharmaceuticals, where net margins run more than 16 percent. However satisfactory that sounds, it still ranks below margins earned by beer makers and magazine publishers. Yet few people complain about the greed of Anheuser-Busch or Condé Nast. Why is it okay to pay a high margin for a cold beer but not for treatments that extend your life?

Besides, the 16 percent is misleading, a product of what statisticians call “survivor bias.” Profits look rich, in part, because they’re skewed by the winners — the small number of start-ups that take risks, succeed in getting drugs through initial FDA testing, and then list their company on a stock exchange to secure more funding. Most losing drug companies, by contrast, vanish without a trace. By counting the returns of only the winners, you skew the results upward.

To be sure, survivor bias occurs in many industries, but it’s especially marked in risky ones like drug making. For example, imagine you’re a start-up launching a product that could return either $25 per share or $75 per share with equal probabilities. Now compare that gamble to launching a product that is equally likely to generate a per share loss of $50 or a per share gain of $150. Both products yield an identical expected return of $50 per share. But companies in the riskier industry will look like they produce a larger rate of return because start-ups that made failed bets won’t go public.

No other industry takes bets as large as pharmaceuticals. On average it takes more than seven years and $800 million to take a drug from the beginning of human trials through FDA approval. And the vast majority of drugs never make it.

In other words, once you factor in risk and survivor bias, even the drug makers aren’t making unreasonable profits. This is exactly what economists would predict — absent a monopoly, competition keeps profits in check. True, drug makers do get patents, which are temporary monopolies designed to reward innovation. But a patent’s life begins in the early stages of a drug’s discovery, not when it comes to market years later — which is why $10 billion in drugs lose their patent protection each year.

For my money, reformers should drop the idea that the root of the system’s problems is profiteering by the health care industry. Doing so would clear the way to work on things that could really start to control costs: eliminate the tax subsidy for employer-sponsored health care and encourage more cost-sharing by patients. Many minor, yet very expensive, medical advancements would fail to pass the cost-benefit sniff test if people had to shell out more of their own dough.

And then this column can move on to other great economic conundrums of our time. Like, exactly why do we pay so much for beer?

More on BNET:

About the Author

Kent Smetters is an associate professor of insurance and risk management at the University of Pennsylvania’s Wharton School and a visiting scholar at the American Enterprise Institute. This column was written with Andrew Biggs, a resident scholar at AEI.

 
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  •  
    1

    Steven Eye

    10/01/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Hate Insurance Companies? You?re Part of the Problem

    Kent,

    Your article contibutes nothing to the debate nor does it shed any insight. Your start out with investigating whether or not the health insurance companies make too much money and winds up stating an opinion that Drug companies are not making too much since they take a 'risk'.

    Without going into how much actual risk drug companies are really taking - I would refer to your original article title - Are the Insurance Companies making too much money?

    The answer is definately yes. Look at the payday of the executives and look at the data that exist from people going broke to maintain their health. The fact that we allow an industry to profit based on the misery of our citizens is a little distburbing. Just like we regulate utilities for the benefit of all people, there is no argument against creating a system that insulates the public from the greed of the market.

    And your comment "Why is it okay to pay a high margin for a cold beer but not for treatments that extend your life?". Really? You are a professor and you would put your argument in terms like this? Margin on a beer vs Margin on Brain surgery? One thing is optional you know....




  •  
    2

    gmoeller1

    10/01/09 | Report as spam

    I'm part of the problem? Uh....how, exactly?

    Bad posting that never follows through on the title's promise to explain how I am "part of the problem" of high health insurance and health care costs. Is it because I'm a living human who requires health care and therefore drives up insurance rates? If that's not the point being made here, what is it?

    And what do beer and magazine margins have to do with 16% pharmaceuticals margins? Nobody's life depends on sucking down a six pack or reading the latest issue of Vogue. Comparison of discretionary consumables with physician-prescribed pharmaceuticals is totally bogus. If there's a valid case to be made for the high margin on prescription medicine, this isn't it.

    This really seems like an apologia for the health care industry and high insurance costs. Give it a new title that accurately reflects the content, or pull it.

  •  
    3

    dr stan

    10/01/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Hate Insurance Companies? You?re Part of the Problem

    Steven Eye and gmoeller1 have done an excellent job of summing up what is wrong with both the article and the health care industry. Greed has no place when providing health care and that is exactly the issue. The CEO?s of the health care industry need to learn the seven deadly sins and seven cardinal virtues and apply them to their personal and professional lives.

  •  
    4

    jefjr

    10/01/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Hate Insurance Companies? You?re Part of the Problem

    Oh, by all means, let's tell consumers that they need to 'shop around more' for better value outcomes in heathcare. That's exactly what I was thinking during my recent trip to the emergency room when the doctor ordered a CT scan while my vital signs were being monitored and I was maintaining hydration via an IV. I should have taken the time to compare and contrast the outcomes from an MRI vs. a CT to make an informed decision. It's no different, really, than comparing a plasma screen with an LCD when I'm at Best Buy.

  •  
    5

    kgillogly

    10/01/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Hate Insurance Companies? You?re Part of the Problem

    The whole notion of health insurance is wheeled around the notion of shifting risk or sharing risk. And if human behaviors (if research is to be believed) affect 50% of health care costs, poor choices can shift the load and the consequences to all stakeholders. One insulin-dependent diabetic can add $13,000 to the cost of a moderately-sized employer's annual group premium. And while health insurers are not without room for improvement, the most signifcant health plan for most people can be found in their grocery lists and activity calendars. The more skin we have the game, the more likely we are to achieve healthier outcomes in our lives.

  •  
    6

    kjameshall

    10/01/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Hate Insurance Companies? You?re Part of the Problem

    Wikipedia - He is a visiting scholar of the American Enterprise Institute. 'Nuff said.

  •  
    7

    YPINA

    10/01/09 | Report as spam

    Health Care Vs Beer

    The comparison between margins for health care Vs beer is distracting. It reminded me of a Hugo Chavez' speech @ OPEC several years ago, when he compared a the price of the barrel of oil to a US$2,000 price for barrel of shampoo, and concluded that the price of oil was a great deal.

  •  
    8

    pranavb99@...

    10/01/09 | Report as spam

    Government is the problem

    Most of the comments don't seem to get it - without insurance companies there wouldn't be health insurance. They sound like the same elitists who demonize check-cashing and pawn shops - just because they don't patronize them they think the poor shouldn't have them either. Sure, these businesses profit by filling a need, as does any other business. Here the need is greater than most. And what are the elitists doing to help the poor? Sure, there's plenty wrong with our health system. Government mandates insurance coverage so we use it for minor maladies, increasing overhead costs across the system. Government restricts purchase of insurance across state lines for individuals, so we have less competition and less ability for the better insurance companies to win. Steven Eye complains about the high paydays of insurance executives, but not the high paydays of executives in other industries. Sure, they make a lot of money. But if he only knew that completely eliminating the profits of insurance companies would pay for no more than a few days of health care at our current expenditures.

  •  
    9

    ChristineKendall

    10/02/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Hate Insurance Companies? You?re Part of the Problem

    Speaking from the UK I really don't get why you all don't want universal health care. Then the Insurance that you choose to pay for private treatment does compare to the Beer as it is an optional extra not a Human right as in the right to life.
    here in the UK no one fears being ill because of cost. You may hear bad things but if I have a heart attack no one will ask for my credit card before they treat me.

  •  
    10

    SWDuda

    10/02/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Hate Insurance Companies? You?re Part of the Problem

    The real problem is that healthcare is a BUSINESS. As long as healthcare is treated as such, nothing will change.

  •  
    11

    njlachap

    10/02/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Hate Insurance Companies? You?re Part of the Problem

    Treating health care as a commodity that is best distributed by spot-purchases on a market - that is a problem. It denies real kinds of social interdependence. If antibiotic-resistent tuberculosis is spreading across a group of undocumented migrant farm workers in your district, the most efficient way to deliver health to you - the documented citizen, is to treat them quickly and aggressively. If a flu pandemic that is both virulent and also deadly crops up anywhere in the world, your tax dollars would be well spent if your government actually supported containment and treatment options in that other country, if only to buy time for more preparations back home. This could result in a health system response to the pandemic that is both more efficient and more effective, resulting in more lives saved.

    Also, while access to health care services is rivalrous and exclusive, health itself as an outcome is neither. If a medical system was really trying to deliver health as the outcome, then doctors should constantly be trying to "put themselves out of a job" by steering people towards preventative measures. A doctor who is most successful in promoting health might have the fewest billable services per patient, in fact.

    Also, as @jefjr noted, health decisions in critical situations are rendered absurdly inefficient by trying to mediate them with market transactions as individual commodities. @jefjr writes:

    ---------------
    Oh, by all means, let's tell consumers that they need to 'shop around more' for better value outcomes in heathcare. That's exactly what I was thinking during my recent trip to the emergency room when the doctor ordered a CT scan while my vital signs were being monitored and I was maintaining hydration via an IV. I should have taken the time to compare and contrast the outcomes from an MRI vs. a CT to make an informed decision. It's no different, really, than comparing a plasma screen with an LCD when I'm at Best Buy.
    -------------------

    In critical care situations, once you are admitted, doctors want to be able to do exactly what they need to do to save or treat the patient. That is also in the patient's best interests, and it produces the benefit that the system is supposed to produce. Pretending that there is a purchasing-style decision to be made for each activity in treatment is ridiculous.

    Health care services might be a club good, rather than a set of commodity offerings. Imagine if you had a gym membership that was run like a country fair or carnival, so that each piece of exercise equipment had its own booth, with hawkers and salespeople outside, trying to convince you of the benefits of using their equipment. This marketization within the health club would add inefficiencies and transaction costs to your workout. It's better to pay a flat fee and then use whatever equipment you want.

    I'm not an economist, but I think there is a certain degree of obviousness to the fact that, when you submit to the care of health professionals, they should just get the job done, focusing on effectiveness. There might be some resource use inefficiencies this way, but the other way there are all those transaction costs and administrative inefficiencies, but also reduced effectiveness - because adding payment considerations to each medical decision complicates each decision (multiply that by billions of decisions per day).

    So in health, we are partially interdependent, which runs counter to the American ideal of personal independence (people say "why should I pay for your health care?" to which the best response is to just cough loudly), and in critical care situations, we become dependent on more competent others, which also runs counter to this ideal. In all of these cases, we are not exactly free agents making standard market decisions. (Not to mention that medical decisions themselves are interdependent, and, as others have emphasized, medical expenses are often not optional - so unlike beer choices, choice is irrelevant for many medical decisions).

    I don't read many people analysing exactly what kind of good (or what kind of basket of public, private, club and other goods) "health" really is. I wish this was a bigger part of the debate, because I don't know much about it, but treating health services as simple commodities produces so many stories of absurdity (as @jefjr points out), and such obvious overall economic inefficiencies (the only country as inefficient as the US in healthcare spending is East Timor, in terms of dollars spent to produce desired results, according to Hans Rosling at Gapminder).

  •  
    12

    NicoleinON

    10/02/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Hate Insurance Companies? You?re Part of the Problem

    Karl Rove, is that you? Is your new online pseudonym Kent Smetters?

    Honestly, this was written in the style of an only-slightly-more-educated 'teabagger'. Does anyone *really* have to point out to Mr. Rove...er, Smetters...that if you don't like the cost of beer, or a magazine, you don't have to buy it and your life won't change appreciably? Whereas if you can't afford a life-saving medical procedure, you're screwed.

    Speaking as an American who lived with the "healthcare" system there for over forty years, and who now lives in Canada, I can testify that "socialized medicine" works much better. Sure, some people slip through the cracks who should have gotten needed medical treatment and didn't get it, but not 47 million of them.

    If it weren't all about the dough-re-mi, Mr. Smetters (or is that Dr. Smetters?), healthcare companies wouldn't pay people to sit in claims departments and look for excuses to deny claims for clearly-covered procedures.

  •  
    13

    neil3378

    10/02/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Hate Insurance Companies? You?re Part of the Problem

    47 million non-insured Americans can go into any hospital and not be refused care. Who pays for that? We do.

    Hospitals advertise. Who pays for that? We do.

    Insurance companies advertise. Who pays for that? We do.

    Doctor's themselves advertise. Who pays for that? We do.

    Health Care Business Executives are paid more than most doctors. Who pays for that? We do.

    BUT socialized medicine is still looked down upon because we want our money going to cover our health care, not someone elses. Guess what? That's not happening. We need to look in the mirror and come to grips with the USA health care being much, much more expensive per capita than socialized medicine.

  •  
    14

    Bebedo

    10/02/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Hate Insurance Companies? You?re Part of the Problem

    Kudos to Steven Eye, gmoeller1, and jefjr for intelligent responses to an article that is simply a waste of time and space.
    There are VERY little capitalist forces in healthcare and pharmaceuticals. Doctors have admitting privileges to only one or 2 hospitals, and even if you were to ask a hospital the price of a procedure, the answer would always be "it depends". It would depend not only on your insurance coverage, but also the particulars of cases once researched.

    The ONLY way forward is a government-sponsored basic health-care option that can negotiate on behalf of all Americans in a true capitalistic sense. No other company has the heft to negotiate with health care and pharma companies.
    THAT is the basis for capitalism, negotiating the best prices.

    Imagine where the government provides basic healthcare for all its citizens and the rich are fully capable of buying greater amounts of insurance to meet their needs if they so desire. Think of it like educaiton -- free until 12th grade, you pay for college and beyond if you so desire.

    Yes, that means some rationing of medical care, but it would also provide extreme long-term benefits in the case of researching the most effective treatments, and best care delivery (doctors no longer order wasteful tests just to get paid more, i.e. by procedre as it is currently).

    Kudos to those professing logic -- a shame the voices heard on the news are an idiotic fringe spewing hyperbolic and ill-informed statements.

  •  
    15

    hawaiifive-oh

    10/02/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Hate Insurance Companies? You?re Part of the Problem

    The problem with socialists such as the numerous people who prattled on with their inane rebuttals to this article is that you are under the assumption that government needs to completely overhaul a system that in its present form works better than any other in the industrialized world but for a couple of small areas.

    As Kent alluded to, the industry profit margins are meager at best. And even if they were triple what they are now, it takes a significant degree of intellectual laziness to refer to this as "profit based on the misery of our citizens ". The fact is, the innovation and quality of our health care system has mitigated, not propagated, the misery of our citizens. As in every other industry, absent a profit motive affordability and quality will suffer because no one will choose to be a producer of health care because there is no incentive to do so. Those who think the government can comfortably assume that role need only look objectively at our public education system and contrast it with competing systems in other countries to conclude that this would be an abject failure.

    As for executive compensation, to use that as an argument to governmentalize 15% of our gross domestic product is a complete non sequitur. The waste and fraud currently plaguing two government-based health care systems, Medicare and Medicaid, makes the hefty paychecks paid to insurance company CEO's look like petty cash. To believe that government can correct any supposed "market inefficiencies" is laugh-out-loud funny.

    It's time to inject some sanity and reason into the health care debate; only then will we successfully fix what's wrong without destroying the quality health care access that literally billions of people on this planet envy. It starts with tort reform and an overhaul of Medicare and Medicaid.

  •  
    16

    IMLaughlin

    10/02/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Hate Insurance Companies? You?re Part of the Problem

    The Germany health care approach seems to be the best. What did they do? Limited health care insurance company profits. If they make over a certain percentage, have to return it to their clients.

    I suspect the professor is an apologist for the industry.

  •  
    17

    river79

    10/02/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Hate Insurance Companies? You?re Part of the Problem

    Kgillogly hit the nail on the head - health care reform MUST include discussion and expectation for individuals to take measures to improve their personal health risk status. Stop smoking, exercise and weight management - the top three. I believe it's the top priority to get us out of this terrible mess we are in.

  •  
    18

    dukemt

    10/02/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Hate Insurance Companies? You?re Part of the Problem

    It's interesting to note that most of these antagonists have resorted to demeaning the messenger or the delivery and ignored the facts. You from other countries are reaping the benefits of our innovative health care system. Yeah, we sure do have some major problems but having the government step in would really wreak havoc. Remember, Americans expect and feel it is our inalienable right to get the absolute best health services or latest cure available, and will find a trial lawyer to sue the pants off some well-meaning physician if we don't, and that is an entirely different paradigm than other countries operate under. Baucus' great idea makes the government both regulator and competitor - that will really work! The government that usually turns over running medicaid, chip or medicare to insurance types we are now villifying will take over telling you when to take your child in for an earache, or what treatment regiment you need for a particular cancer?? I don't think so. I'm not a fan of insurance companies but the rush to find a scapegoat is a red herring. And with a government option, reimbursement rates to providers will surely be at medicaid levels so watch what happens to availability, maybe we can get checkups at the Driver's License stations! The only way any option will work is to start with taking the liability out of it (the trial lawyers will miss their jack-pot awards) but that won't happen anytime soon because trial lawyers contribute so much to the war-chests of the designers of this new system. Too much government and too little common sense got us into this mess and too much more government and any less common sense will have disasterous consequences. But at least we will have had "change" I guess

  •  
    19

    hhubschle

    10/02/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Hate Insurance Companies? You?re Part of the Problem

    'Their average net profit margin is just 3.9 percent.'

    Of course this is AFTER they subtract huge executive salaries, advertising expenses and all the effort that goes into reviewing claims with a fine-toothed comb.

    If I am not mistaken the average payout in claims is about 80% of what the insurers collect in premiums. If that percentage goes up the insurers stock price goes down. A somewhat efficient single-payer non-profit system like the one in Canada would have an overhead of around 5%.

  •  
    20

    rainbowkati

    10/02/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Hate Insurance Companies? You?re Part of the Problem

    Really.....let's get "real". I feel the Bottom Line to all our health scenarios, revolve around a "Belief system" of : treat the symptom!!!! We, for too many years, have built the empires of drugs and diagnosis for Treatments through this belief ......rather than Preventative Medicine. Until we change our "Belief" of the Hows of Health, we will continue to see skyrocketing fees and "drugs" predisposing us through advertising for their "treatment of symptoms". I personally have no Insurance (can't afford Cobra costs) and am unable to go to Doctor for "Well-Being" check-ups (which I did annually with insurance), due to the fact that I might need further tests which then establish a "pre-existing" condition thus allowing declines to regain health care insurance. I'm all for the Free-Enterpise system......with compassion and understanding of basic needs of the people in the system. We are dangerously moving deeeeeper in Greed Mode at the cost of "Human Life!"

  •  
    21

    johnsoni

    10/02/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Hate Insurance Companies? You?re Part of the Problem

    One question though? what happens when the healthcare system in the US is no longer profitable to the drug companies and to doctors... or even to health insurers. I'm only guessing but I think the logical consequence is that the industry will attract less brains and the US can wave good buy to being the leaders in biotechnology.

  •  
    22

    elitist

    10/02/09 | Report as spam

    This is pathetic article

    Mr. Smetters probably has never had the need for any emergency care nor knows anyone who has. Its only a matter of time before you change your opinion. All it takes is one injury or sickness before you stop thinking about human life in terms of numbers and profit.

  •  
    23

    LizNOLA

    10/02/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Hate Insurance Companies? You?re Part of the Problem

    Not a great article or particularily helpful. You bring up the health insurance companies then toss up a straw man, the Pharm companies, and beat it instead.

    Health insurance companies on the scale that they operate make plenty of money. Their business model is to charge as much premium as possible and deliver a little product that they can. That just does not work with health care.
    Health care does not fit your solution in the last few sentences of your article. When people need care they have no choice but to have to get it. The market power is skewed. Plus it is inefficient - the time that clinicians spent complying with insurance company documentation is time that expensively-trained professionals spend doing clerical work. Stop it and let them practice their profession.

    Streamline the source and documentation. Let public plans provide basic care and preventive public health. Bundle purchasing of drugs. Then, if you want botox or a tuck, you can pay for it yourself.

    I don't buy your argument. Neither does the MAJORITY of health care professionals.

  •  
    24

    johnsoni

    10/02/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Hate Insurance Companies? You?re Part of the Problem

    For those who care, you may follow the link provided below.
    http://mises.org/story/3727
    I think it sheds light in a more logical fashion

  •  
    25

    clarkm

    10/02/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Hate Insurance Companies? You?re Part of the Problem

    It's not about the profits that the health insurance companies make it's the value they provide, and they provide zero value in terms of the actual function of providing health care.

    The author defends pharma companies by noting the "risks" that they take then questions subsidies to employer paid healthcare. While I'm all for increased personal responsibility for one's personal health (cost-sharing), I'm not sure how that relates to tax subsidies. Plus, don't those pharma companies get subsidies as well?! They are well protected by our government. Just take a look at those financial statements, they're certainly not losing money. They are one of the largest government lobbys of all industries. As such we are the most drugged society in the history of the world.

    Kent is a twit.

  •  
    26

    bmorisky

    10/02/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Hate Insurance Companies? You?re Part of the Problem

    By what definition is something with over 70% support (the public option) "controversial"? BNET, I am really dissappointed. I expect unbiased information from you.

  •  
    27

    samdog77

    10/02/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Hate Insurance Companies? You?re Part of the Problem

    Their profit margins may not be all that high, but insurance company CEOs, many health care workers are over paid (especially doctors). I am not saying that health care workers don't deserve an equitable wage, but when they are topping other careers that take more education that's too much. Riduculous lawsuits and obscene verdicts also contribute to the problem. I don't have all the answers, but the first solution should be to allow taxpayers to deduct all health expenses including insurance.

  •  
    28

    clarkm

    10/02/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Hate Insurance Companies? You?re Part of the Problem

    Doctors are overpaid???? You've got to be kidding samdog77. What other careers (assumingly underpaid) require much more education than a doctor's? Possibly you are talking about some of the support functions in healthcare. Maybe you should talk to some doctors and nurses.

    Since we're at it I had a few more issues for Kent.

    Please tell me this, who makes more money;
    Health Insurance companies or hospitals?
    Health Insurance executives or doctors?
    Health Insurance lobbyists and sales people or nurses?

    samdog77 apparently thinks it's the latter but I think that most people know it's the former.

    I assume Kent's numbers regarding profits come from the Insurer's financial statements. We all know that these are heavily massaged to show as little income as possible. That's what companies pay their financial people to do. We also know many companies will go as far as committing crimes to manipulate their statements as well.

    Now Obamacare plans on making everyone purchase health insurance by law. How many other industries have the government/s legal backing, demanding that we buy their products? As for the beer companies, didn't our government once make their products illegal???

  •  
    29

    bigcig

    10/02/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Hate Insurance Companies? You?re Part of the Problem

    In many countries you can bring your doctor a live chicken in exchange for services rendered. No insurance company at all. Nobody makes any money. Even better, no politics. No government. In such areas, healthcare is not a right, it's a gift from God. Are we spoiled? In our "we demand" culture, it's all about I need it, I want it, give it to me, give it to me now...let somebody else pay for it and no one should make money. Attention U.S. doctors...would you take a live chicken for your services?

  •  
    30

    Chas12

    10/02/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Hate Insurance Companies? You?re Part of the Problem

    Your article hangs a thin veneer over the cost problem. I agree that it is unfair to criticize insurers whose rates have risen in lock-step with health care delivery costs. But the amount of money made on health care delivery is obscene, perhaps not at the corporate level, but among corporate executives and multi-millionaire doctors with specialties. When a heart surgeon with just three years of experience can earn on average a salary of about $800,000 per year, plus benefits, and those more expeienced surgeons who join in private practice make over a million dollars a year, the time honored profession is failing its mission to "do no harm" because the unaffordability of millionaire medicine harms many, and it is only going to get worse and affect far more people unless these costs are reigned in.

    Chas G

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    31

    rosepbx

    10/02/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Hate Insurance Companies? You?re Part of the Problem

    In terms of government-run healthcare vs revamping the current system, I asked myself one question, which brought me to a very solid conclusion that I prefer the latter option:

    Do I really want the very same government who brought us DMV, to run my health care?

    EEEEEK!

  •  
    32

    Lynn110

    10/02/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Hate Insurance Companies? You?re Part of the Problem

    Profits come from greed.
    Government is non profit.
    Therefore government is not greedy.

    Logic is a wonderful thing.
    Faulty premise leading to
    non sequitur

    Congressmen are paragons of virtue
    Therefore we should trust them with our lives.

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    33

    PhDInGrumbling

    10/05/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Hate Insurance Companies? You?re Part of the Problem

    I don't NEED to buy beer but I typically NEED to buy drugs my doctor prescribes, procedures he performs, etc.

    Why is the profit margin on things we NEED typically so small? Like Education and Food (farming) ? Because the government steps in and assures there will be an over-abundance. Or regulates the industry to insure things remain fair (energy industry). What happened to health care?

    I know several pharmaceutical sales persons who live a upper-class lifestyle: large houses, brand new cars, tickets to all the best events -- no one I know in education or farming can afford those perks. Where is the balance?

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    34

    pranavb99@...

    10/05/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Hate Insurance Companies? You?re Part of the Problem

    Most of our commenters are clueless. How will we afford this public option when the CBO has estimated that the cost will increase the deficit?

    Government's $100T unfunded liabillity, equivalent to $1.3m per family of four, from head of the Dallas FED http://www.dallasfed.org/news/speeches/fisher/2008/fs080528.cfm



  •  
    35

    TomGrinley

    10/05/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Hate Insurance Companies? You?re Part of the Problem

    As I was absorbing the news of yet another increase in my premiums and co-pays, I also read that the CEO of my health insurer was getting a $16.2 million bonus. No wonder people are blaming the insurance industry.

  •  
    36

    pranavb99@...

    10/05/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Hate Insurance Companies? You?re Part of the Problem

    What a tired hack...oh no, insurance executives get paid millions! Here's a bit of awakening...

    http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200909/health-care

    "For fun, let?s imagine confiscating all the profits of all the famously greedy health-insurance companies. That would pay for four days of health care for all Americans. Let?s add in the profits of the 10 biggest rapacious U.S. drug companies. Another 7 days. Indeed, confiscating all the profits of all American companies, in every industry, wouldn?t cover even five months of our health-care expenses."

    For those disinclined to read the whole article, here are some excerpts:

    "I?m a Democrat, and have long been concerned about America?s lack of a health safety net. But based on my own work experience, I also believe that unless we fix the problems at the foundation of our health system?largely problems of incentives?our reforms won?t do much good, and may do harm. To achieve maximum coverage at acceptable cost with acceptable quality, health care will need to become subject to the same forces that have boosted efficiency and value throughout the economy. We will need to reduce, rather than expand, the role of insurance; focus the government?s role exclusively on things that only government can do (protect the poor, cover us against true catastrophe, enforce safety standards, and ensure provider competition); overcome our addiction to Ponzi-scheme financing, hidden subsidies, manipulated prices, and undisclosed results; and rely more on ourselves, the consumers, as the ultimate guarantors of good service, reasonable prices, and sensible trade-offs between health-care spending and spending on all the other good things money can buy."

    "...for every two doctors in the U.S., there is now one health-insurance employee?more than 470,000 in total. In 2006, it cost almost $500 per person just to administer health insurance. Much of this enormous cost would simply disappear if we paid routine and predictable health-care expenditures the way we pay for everything else?by ourselves."

    "The average insured American and the average uninsured American spend very similar amounts of their own money on health care each year?$654 and $583, respectively. But they spend wildly different amounts of other people?s money?$3,809 and $1,103, respectively. Sometimes the uninsured do not get highly beneficial treatments because they cannot afford them at today?s prices?something any reform must address. But likewise, insured patients often get only marginally beneficial (or even outright unnecessary) care at mind-boggling cost. If it?s true that the insurance system leads us to focus on only our direct share of costs?rather than the total cost to society?it?s not surprising that insured families and uninsured ones would make similar decisions as to how much of their own money to spend on care, but very different decisions on the total amount to consume."

    "The unfortunate fact is, health-care demand has no natural limit. Our society will always keep creating new treatments to cure previously incurable problems. Some of these will save lives or add productive years to them; many will simply make us more comfortable. That?s all to the good. But the cost of this comfort, and whether it?s really worthwhile, is never calculated?by anyone. For almost all our health-care needs, the current system allows us as consumers to ask providers, ?What?s my share?? instead of ?How much does this cost???a question we ask before buying any other good or service. And the subtle difference between those two questions is costing us all a fortune."

  •  
    37

    EPIKService

    10/05/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Hate Insurance Companies? You?re Part of the Problem

    Putting the cost of health care in the spot light requires that all of those elements contibuting to health care be viewed as a whole.
    When it comes to beer, you purchase it take it home and drink it.
    For health care, prescription margin may be 16%, but the costs lobbying doctors has been taken from the profit.
    Now, the doctor prescribes the drug in the hospital and marks it up 25 to 75% and many times more.
    Let's not forget the doctor's liability insurance paid to protect himself to prescribe the drug.
    The liability insurance also has it's margin to settle with ambulance chasing attorneys involved in class action suits.
    And only then does the insurance company add its 3% on top of all that.

  •  
    38

    randym@...

    10/05/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Hate Insurance Companies? You?re Part of the Problem

    Ever been in the military? Yes, certainly there are inefficiencies and inconveniences and waiting, etc. But everybody has a basic level of care. Sure, it is not the top of the heap that everybody wants.
    I would much rather pay for my kids to go to private schools their whole lives, I am certain that they would receive a better education. But I cannot afford that so they go to public school to get their education. And you know what? They come out of there with a basic education that far exceeds the nothing they would get if there were no public option.
    And you know what else? Before I had kids and after they are grown I will still continue to pay for public schools. You know why? Because it is a basic investment in our society.
    There is no reason why a public option and private insurers cannot co-exist. The only people who fight against it are the ones who stand to lose bucks from reorganizing this broken system.

  •  
    39

    bobbrentman

    10/05/09 | Report as spam

    Was i redirected? Is this FOX News?

    A posting by two AEI scholars? I'm looking forward to the global warming article written by EXXON reps. Only half joking there. This isn't too far from it.

    http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/american-enterprise-institute

    If you visit the link above you can learn a bit about this Cheney-honoring/run, NeoCon outfit; AEI. Oh - and by the way, one of their trustees (or at least he was at one time and may still be) is Wilson H. Taylor. The CEO of one of the largest Health Insurance companies in the world: CIGNA.

    Where's the counterbalance to this right wing nonsense? Hey guys, Republicans are self identifying at about half the rate of Democrats..appealing to the fringe are you?

    I thought that a site's goal was maximum users? Stick to the facts - leave the NeoCon baloney to the WSJ. They are doing a great job of running that org into the ground! You really shouldn't race them to the bottom.

  •  
    40

    bobbrentman

    10/05/09 | Report as spam

    Kent: you worked for Bush and were pushing for privatizing Social Security

    http://slate.msn.com/id/2096337/

    Says so in the link above (and in hundreds of other links). You worked in the Bush Administration and were part of his team working on privatization of social security. Anybody still think Kent was correct on that one? I shudder at the thought of the madness that would have ensued in the wake of the recent corrections and future ones.

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    41

    NicoleinON

    10/06/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Hate Insurance Companies? You?re Part of the Problem

    Nice work, Mr. Brentman. Wish *I'd* thought to Google our little brainwashed Bush-bot....

  •  
    42

    njlachap

    10/06/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Hate Insurance Companies? You?re Part of the Problem

    @rosepbx, you asked "Do I really want the very same government who brought us DMV, to run my health care?" On the Canadian model, anyway, there are almost no government run clinics or practices. Doctors run their practices as independent small businesses, and hospitals (or groups of them) are run as independent corporations - although they are subject to government audit. When these entities bill for services, most core services are covered by an insurance plan that everyone in a province contributes to through taxes. A lot of services are not covered by the provincial plan, and employer-based group benefits plans are where a lot of people get their coverage for those bills. Some bills are just paid out of pocket. Drugs are only covered for the very poor in my province. There are debates about rebalancing this mix of coverage, but note that it's not quite the same thing as having all medical services under the direct management of the public service as a government department.

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    43

    njlachap

    10/06/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Hate Insurance Companies? You?re Part of the Problem

    Historically and culturally, I might add, the Canadian system emerged less as a government takeover of private sector medicine, and more as a political achievement of the co-op sector, which succeeded in using the tools of government to universalize a cooperative risk pool. Tommy Douglas - the architect of the system and the person voted "the Greatest Canadian of all time" in a nationwide contest - had his political roots in agrarian mutual aid societies - the political party he led was originally called the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (CCF). Universal healthcare was thus a populist coup in Canada during an age of agrarian activism. It's hard to appreciate the Canadian system if you only recognize two economic sectors - public and private - and ignore the third cooperative/mutual aid sector - the one people universally turn to when both market and government fail to provide them with necessary services.

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    44

    haggis_the_dog

    10/06/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Hate Insurance Companies? You?re Part of the Problem

    It appears as though Cost of health care is the primary issue. What I fail to understand is why the apologists such as Smetters believe a free-market system as is employed in the US is the best answer to the cost issue. Looking at other countries, the per-capita amount spent on healthcare in the US far outstrips the next highest nation. Comparing quality of care (the US is the fourth country I've lived in, and the only country with a privitized healthcare system), quality of care is no different (although wait times in the US are longer than they were in the last country I lived in - Germany).

    Insurance is about pooled risk. The more people sharing in the risk, the less risk is incurred by any individual. A single-payer system that is contributed into by all citizens (through taxes) will always carry less individual cost than a privatized "free market" system where many companies compete for subscribers - simply because the risk pool contains all possible subscribers. In my opinion, this is why the UK, Canada and Germany are able to offer high-quality care while keeping a cap on costs (and it has nothing to do with limiting access to specialits and specialized treatments).

    The German system is perhaps the best I have come accross. This system contains a mixture of a single-payer construct, with private insurers operating within the system. Everyone is guaranteed a standard of care. Copays are exactly the same regardless of private insurer chosen. Access to specialists, hospitals and GPs is the same regardless of insurer. What differes is the "add-ons" - whether you get a private room in the hospital etc. The insurance companies compete on these additionals, and people are free to select among options.

    I also fail to see why introducing a single-payer or "public" option necessitates a decline in intelligent and capable people going into the medical profession or conducting medical research. It is a complete fallicy to claim that no other country participates in medical research. It is also completely untrue to imply that countries with a single-payer health-care system only employ semi-talented doctors. People will continue to migrate into medical fields because - even under these systems - medical jobs are well paid and highly respected. Also, while some people enter the medical field for the money, the majority enter to "help people" or "save lives" or to experience the thrill of having control over the lives of other people. There are many factors that influence this decision, and money is just one of them. For a full understanding of how money motivates, search this site for "performance related pay" and see what the extensive research on this topic returns to you.

    I wish my American cousins the best of luck with this increasingly divisive debate. It certainly is interesting being in the US while this debate occurrs and seeing first hand what passes for public discourse in this country.

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    45

    neil3378

    10/07/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Hate Insurance Companies? You?re Part of the Problem

    I spent my child and teen years in the states, moved to Canada (public healthcare) for 15 years, 2.5 years in Belgium (public healthcare), now back in the states. Personally, and without hesitation, the American healthcare system ranks a distance third (out of 3). And frankly, how all this fuss, fear and negativism from a world leading society over public healthcare is tolerated (and placated) is almost embarrassing.

  •  
    46

    pranavb99@...

    10/07/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Hate Insurance Companies? You?re Part of the Problem

    http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2009/08/canadian-health-care-imploding-doctors.html

    The incoming president of the Canadian Medical Association says this country's health-care system is sick and doctors need to develop a plan to cure it.

    Dr. Anne Doig says patients are getting less than optimal care and she adds that physicians from across the country - who will gather in Saskatoon on Sunday for their annual meeting - recognize that changes must be made.

    "We all agree that the system is imploding, we all agree that things are more precarious than perhaps Canadians realize," Doing said in an interview with The Canadian Press.

    "We know that there must be change," she said. "We're all running flat out, we're all just trying to stay ahead of the immediate day-to-day demands."

  •  
    47

    NicoleinON

    10/07/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Hate Insurance Companies? You?re Part of the Problem

    What is truly mind-boggling in this "debate" (if you can call gun-toting "teabaggers" and the uninformed Faux News blowhards "debaters") is just how hard they're working to fight something that really is in the best interests of themselves and their families. It just goes to show you in the grand scheme of things, that fear is a greater power than the love one's children.

    Kids, don't knock 'socialized medicine' until you've tried it. The reason why the insurance companies fought so hard against Obama's "public option" was because they knew damn well that if Americans were exposed to thing they feared the most *they'd never want to go back!*

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    48

    njlachap

    10/07/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Hate Insurance Companies? You?re Part of the Problem

    pranavb99@ - your link about Canadian healthcare systems "imploding" sensationalizes the issue that there are problems in our system. Honestly, if you think the idea people who support public insurance programs do so because they believe it produces health care systems that are free from all problems, you are setting up a straw man.

    Every thinking Canadian I know understands that our system has problems, and that changes in the blend of public insurance, private insurance, fee-for-service work and cooperative health care might be needed. However, the big push-back against reform comes from our fear against ending up like the USA! The biggest rallying cry for Canadians resisting reform is the refusal to create a "two-tiered" medical system - one for the rich and one for the poor. Of course there are already inequalities in health that track inequalities in wealth, but that's the political rallying cry anyhow.

    There have also been tours of British politicians in Canada as well, warning us that when they began privatizing or allowing the privatization of certain healthcare services in their country, they ended up being surprised by the degree to which the administrative overhead of managing each patient shot up. That administrative cost gobbled up a lot of the savings they had hoped that limited privatization would deliver.

    There is conservatism everywhere - as in resistance to change - so Canadian conservatism against health care reform is as strong as it is in the US, even though the direction of reform is opposed in the two countries. However, since our system does need reform, the CMA has to generate urgency and recognition about this need in the media. That gives us the juicy sound bites about our system "imploding". But honestly, if the US system wasn't so manifestly unfair and economically mercenary, Canadian reformers would have a much easier time of it. Our system needs to evolve - why wouldn't it? But Canadians are so afraid of US-style healthcare that it is stifling debate about any reforms at all, when there are plenty of other systems - Japan, Taiwan, Germany etc., which we should consider as we address the problems we face.

    If there were fewer Chicken-Littles on both sides of the border, and if we actually looked at the many different ways to invest in health promotion, we could make a lot of important reforms. But on the US side there is the red scare still, and on our side it's the US-scare. Both types of idiocy are standing in the way of sober thought on the issue.

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    49

    pranavb99@...

    10/08/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Hate Insurance Companies? You?re Part of the Problem

    NicoleinON, as usual, arguments from Statists like you are predicated on name-calling rather than fact and sound reasoning, essentially because you have no fact and sound reasoning to depend upon. Its quite easy to dispense with you chaps. So tell me, how is it in the "...best interests of themselves and their families" to increase our debt when our unfunded liability is at $100T (equivalent to $1.3m per family of four) and counting? From the head of the Dallas FED http://www.dallasfed.org/news/speeches/fisher/2008/fs080528.cfm

    njlachap, I agree, we need a third way. That way is to remove US government interference which protects incumbents and drives up prices through limiting competition:
    1) State regulations eliminate purchase of insurance across state lines by individuals
    2) AMA acts like a cartel and limits supply of doctors http://www.nytimes.com/1986/06/29/business/curbing-the-supply-of-physicians-who-said-we-have-too-many-doctors.html?scp=3&sq=ama%20restricts%20doctors&st=cse
    3) Government protects market share and profits of Big Pharma: "Internal Memo Confirms Big Giveaways In White House Deal With Big Pharma" http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/13/internal-memo-confirms-bi_n_258285.html
    4) Government protects market share and profits of Big Insurance: "The Health Insurers Have Already Won: How UnitedHealth and rival carriers, maneuvering behind the scenes in Washington, shaped health-care reform for their own benefit" http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/09_33/b4143034820260.htm

    You sound well reasoned and intelligent, and I think you would get a lot out of reading this article by a self-described "left" "Democrat" who believes in a role for government, but not in running health care. http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200909/health-care

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    50

    letlinda

    10/18/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Hate Insurance Companies? You?re Part of the Problem

    You can't be serious by asking us to believe that this health care debauchle is no about money. Bottom line that's what it's all about. Why is the health care industry spending over 2M per day to lobby for its best interests. Get real.

  •  
    51

    LinzieA

    10/20/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Hate Insurance Companies? You?re Part of the Problem

    You left out one other big cost for medical costs and our Congress is loathing to act on it. Legal costs. When I was working for the pharmaceutical industry, for every two dollars in profit earned one dollar went to fight legal costs. That is also true in the automotive industry as well.

    Please look at the dark side as well.

    labrim

  •  
    52

    pranavb99@...

    11/19/09 | Report as spam

    RE: Hate Insurance Companies? You?re Part of the Problem

    Marxist-oriented writer Gabriel Kolko demonstrated in his 1967 book The Triumph of Conservatism: that government regulatory bodies inevitably become controlled by the very industries that they are supposed to be ?regulating.?

    So yes, letlinda, the greater the regulation, the more special interests (corporations, unions, etc.) try to protect their turf and even expand it. The only solution lies in LIMITED government rather than leftist fantasies that next time will be different, or that the other party will never come into power and abuse things from yet another angle.

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